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  #2241  
Old 11-12-2013, 07:33 PM
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So what you are saying is that they cold bloodedly misrepresented what the long term plan was at the time of the marriage beause they knew that if the true plan were known it would cause an 'uproar'? It's either that or take Charles at his word at the time of the marriage.
I dont think so. MY understanding is that the wife of a royal takes her titles from her husband. So Camilla is Princess of Wales, Duchess of Cornwall, Duchess of Rothesay (when in Scotland), Countess of Chester etc. She has chosen to be called Duchess of Cornwall as it is one of her titles. This was made clear at the time.

When Charles becomes King, she will automatically become Queen - fact. There has been talk about her being called something else - ie Princess Consort, but the issue with that is that title does not exist, it does not come from her husband and therefore (it has been argued) has no validity in law.

"misleading" is a strong term. Times, people and events change things. Camilla is more accepted now than was once thought possible. What may have been considered as a way forward then may not seem necessary now.

My personal view is that creating some form of title does no one any credit. She has earned her place and will be the wife of of a King - ergo she should be called Queen

Please don't start a debate on divorce and all that stuff here - there is another thread if you want to do that.
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  #2242  
Old 11-12-2013, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by scooter View Post
So what you are saying is that they cold bloodedly misrepresented what the long term plan was at the time of the marriage beause they knew that if the true plan were known it would cause an 'uproar'? It's either that or take Charles at his word at the time of the marriage.

In 2005 it was announced that she 'intended on being known as Princess Consort'. That terminology is still the stated wording on the PoW website.

However it was also announced - by the then PM no less - that she would become Princess of Wales as soon as she was married AND that she would also be Queen Consort.

It was also made clear that legislation was needed to strip her of the title Queen Consort and create her Princess Consort - in 2005 - in the days leading up to the wedding.

There was no misleading of the population - but rather a refusal of many of the population to actually read and understand the entire situation.

The intention is still that she will be Princess Consort - but that means that the government of the day will have to pass the legislation to allow for a morganatic marriage which it was made clear in 1936 didn't exist in UK law - a wife takes all titles etc from her husband.

I suspect that the legislation will be introduced and will be shot down on the grounds of discrimination against one woman - denying her the same rights as every other woman.
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  #2243  
Old 11-12-2013, 07:52 PM
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Very clear reply on the detail - thank you. I don't believe that legislation will be introduced. Hopefully, which ever politican is around will stand up and say not necessary, but there is also the chance of weasel words along the line of "no parliamentary time". Anyway, by the time all that happens, the media will be calling her Queen Camilla .
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  #2244  
Old 11-12-2013, 08:01 PM
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All our history of having Queen consorts and then to suddenly have a Princess Consort. Princess Consort doesn't have the same ring to it as Queen.
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  #2245  
Old 11-12-2013, 08:08 PM
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I think that to change something so key to the constitutional monarchy system for one occasion for one individual is wrong.
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  #2246  
Old 11-12-2013, 09:16 PM
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It's a tricky situation but I applaud Camilla for taking her secondary title and working her tail off as HRH The Duchess of Cornwall. She respected Diana's memory, her sons and the people over the title of HRH The Princess of Wales and think that's great.

I think if Charles and Camilla want the title HRH The Princess Consort to come into law, then I think that Parliament should allow that to happen. If Charles & Camilla agree on the title Queen Consort, then I think that should happen.

I'm actually looking forward to William being invested as HRH The Prince of Wales and Catherine becoming HRH The Princess of Wales. I'm sure Charles will give his son the title as soon as he can.
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  #2247  
Old 11-12-2013, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
I suspect that the legislation will be introduced and will be shot down on the grounds of discrimination against one woman - denying her the same rights as every other woman.
Absolutely, and this seems the strongest case that Camilla will be Queen Consort. Why is she less deserving than her predecessors who carried the title just because a certain segment of the population can't accept her as the wife of a king? How many Queen Consorts throughout British history based on that would have then been denied the title because of their unpopularity? Quite a few, I'd wager. Camilla should not go down in history as being denied a rightful title because of such discrimination.
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  #2248  
Old 11-12-2013, 09:30 PM
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It's a tricky situation but I applaud Camilla for taking her secondary title and working her tail off as HRH The Duchess of Cornwall. She respected Diana's memory, her sons and the people over the title of HRH The Princess of Wales and think that's great.

I think if Charles and Camilla want the title HRH The Princess Consort to come into law, then I think that Parliament should allow that to happen. If Charles & Camilla agree on the title Queen Consort, then I think that should happen.

I'm actually looking forward to William being invested as HRH The Prince of Wales and Catherine becoming HRH The Princess of Wales. I'm sure Charles will give his son the title as soon as he can.

Imagine putting a law in place for 1 person - poss. 3 readings in both houses, lots of time and debate; lots of raking over old news. For someone who will probably be Queen for 20 years. In the whole expanse of the monarchy - why on earth do that? The monarchy is supposedly greater than one individual.
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  #2249  
Old 11-12-2013, 09:38 PM
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Imagine putting a law in place for 1 person - poss. 3 readings in both houses, lots of time and debate; lots of raking over old news.
And all that just after Queen Elizabeth II's death. They really think the Prime Minister will ask the new King to signe a law stripping his wife from her titles on the day his mother died? This ideia sounds ridiculous to me.
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Old 11-12-2013, 09:45 PM
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I think that to change something so key to the constitutional monarchy system for one occasion for one individual is wrong.
Well you have the prescedent in the immediate family of QEII's aunt Wallis, who was denied equal status to her husband. And Wallis had no possibility of being Queen. None the less, she was denied, by letters patent, no need to involve the entire government. Seems straightforward to me. And it IS what Charles announced at the time. Also, there was a lot published about Camilla not wanting to be queen before she agreed to marry him, so it seems quite plausible that she has no desire to be Queen.
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  #2251  
Old 11-12-2013, 09:56 PM
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There is no precedent of the wife of the King being denied being Queen. You marry the heir to the throne you expect that you may be Queen is some point in the future.
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  #2252  
Old 11-12-2013, 09:59 PM
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Well you have the prescedent in the immediate family of QEII's aunt Wallis, who was denied equal status to her husband. And Wallis had no possibility of being Queen. None the less, she was denied, by letters patent, no need to involve the entire government. Seems straightforward to me. And it IS what Charles announced at the time. Also, there was a lot published about Camilla not wanting to be queen before she agreed to marry him, so it seems quite plausible that she has no desire to be Queen.
Key point missed here. Wallis Simpson was not married to the King, and the country does not recognise morganatic marriages as legal. No preescedent at all
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  #2253  
Old 11-12-2013, 10:03 PM
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The difference is that the title The Queen Consort is the only title available for the wife of The King.

Wallis wasn't denied the title of the wife of her husband - i.e. she did become The Duchess of Windsor - to stop her doing that would have been impossible without legislation. The LPs that have been referred to relate to the LPs that created Edward as Duke of Windsor and so it could be included in those LPs that the HRH only applied to him and him alone and not to his spouse or children - despite the earlier 1917s LPs.

To stop her using a style could be done via LPs - to stop her taking her husband's titles is a different situation entirely.

As there a no LPs to create Charles HM The King there can be no LPs to strip his wife of HM The Queen - it needs new legislation specifically to deny the wife of HM The King to take on a different title - and unlike The Duchess of Cornwall he doesn't have any other titles she could use.
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  #2254  
Old 11-12-2013, 10:36 PM
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It doesn't make sense to pass a law to change queen to princess consort just for Camilla especially right after the Queen death. Just because Camilla was Charles's mistress is not a reason to deny her the proper title. How many Kings were adulters ? Almost all of them but they still were King and Head of the CoE.
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  #2255  
Old 11-12-2013, 10:48 PM
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What is really daft is that whilst this would be going through the parliamentary process, her legal title would be Queen. So why bother?

There are more important things for our politicans to be dealing with, frankly.
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  #2256  
Old 11-12-2013, 10:56 PM
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There is also some suggestion that the change will have to be ratified by all the Realms, too. I haven't thought much on this though. Bertie, what say you?
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  #2257  
Old 11-12-2013, 11:22 PM
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When The Queen is near the end and close her eyes, the Camilla/Queen issue is going to hit the fan. I'm not sure Charles, Camilla, the royal family, palace officials and the government is looking forward to that headache.
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  #2258  
Old 11-12-2013, 11:49 PM
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I don't think so. When the queen dies, there will be an accession council and the announcement of the new King from SJP. Then the lying in state and funeral. That is going to take 7 to 10 days and no politician is going to raise a stink about Camilla during that time period in difference to the late queen. Plus William and Harry will treat Camilla as the Queen.
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  #2259  
Old 11-12-2013, 11:58 PM
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The Accession Council is ceremonial and their announcement has no legal status. The instant the Queen dies, Charles is King and Camilla is Queen. So even longer in reality. You're right that no one will be creating problems prior to the funeral.
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  #2260  
Old 11-13-2013, 12:00 AM
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I don't think so. When the queen dies, there will be an accession council and the announcement of the new King from SJP. Then the lying in state and funeral. That is going to take 7 to 10 days and no politician is going to raise a stink about Camilla during that time period in difference to the late queen. Plus William and Harry will treat Camilla as the Queen.
I know that the world will be busy in morning but I mean the debates will rise leading up to the next Coronation. Trust me, there will be a great deal of debates, stories, official statements, etc, going on. It's not going to be pretty and I think we have to brace ourselves for that.
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