The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Reigning Houses > British Royals

Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #2201  
Old 08-06-2013, 08:00 PM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 9,464
The Mountbatten thing came up when Elizabeth became Queen with Louis Mountbatten saying something alone the lines of 'now the House of Mountbatten reigns' assuming that Elizabeth had taken her husband's surname at the time of her marriage - as is customary.

Queen Mary was opposed to that for two reasons - she didn't really Louis Mountbatten and it was her husband who had changed the House and family name to Windsor.

Philip adopted Mountbatten when he was naturalised which was months before the engagement so he had a name in the navy to use.

The change in 1960 was advised on the grounds that by not using the father's name it implied that the children were in fact illegitimate as only the children of unwed mothers take their mother's surname and so Mountbatten-Windsor came about - to ensure that in the future there was no question about the legitimacy of the children - doubt that there ever would have been but who knows with some people.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #2202  
Old 08-06-2013, 08:02 PM
cepe's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 4,987
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
I always find the amoeba comment rather ironic, given the origins of the name Mountbatten....

Mountbatten is the name that Philip's mother's English family adopted when they lost their German titles and adopted British names. The Battenbergs, headed by Philip's maternal grandfather Prince Louis of Battenberg, became the Mountbattens (with Prince Louis becoming the first Marquess of Milford Haven). This all happened after Philip's mother, Alice, married Andrew of Greece and Denmark, so she was never a Mountbatten.

When Philip became engaged to Princess Elizabeth he gave up his Greek titles (or stopped using them) and adopted an British surname, the name used by his mother's family. When Elizabeth became Queen it was debated that her children would belong to the House of Mountbatten, as per Philip's adopted surname, but it wasn't necessarily brought up by Philip himself.

It was, however, shot down by Queen Mary on the grounds that Philip didn't properly belong to the House of Mountbatten due to maternal descent, and Winston Churchill brought it up in Parliament where the government decided that the House would remain the House of Windsor. The amoeba comment can be seen as Philip's reaction to Parliament telling him that his children descendants wouldn't bear his name, a frustration with the situation (and the break from tradition; when Queen Victoria married her children didn't belong to her House). I always figured it was more of a comment made in anger as the result of an insult than a comment made to express his strong wish that his children be Mountbattens. That his children aren't "of Greece and Denmark" to me indicates that he doesn't necessarily feel the need for his children to bear titles and names he gives them.

The Mountbatten-Windsor happened in 1960 - after the death of Queen Mary and the retirement of Churchill. It doesn't apply to the House itself, just the surname of male-line, non-royal descendants, and I think it was just an attempt to show that at that point in time, post-Churchill, they were trying to find a bit of a middle ground.

It's significant (in my opinion) that the issue didn't come up while Elizabeth was pregnant with Charles or Anne (who were both styled "of Edinburgh" at birth), but did come up again after Andrew's birth. I wonder if some of the earlier position was taken because the idea of non-royal, male-line descendants was less likely with the first two children (more of Charles' descendants will be Royal than Andrew's, while none of Anne's will) than with the last two children.
Thank you. It is interesting that (then)Princess Anne signed her marriage certificate to Mark Phillips as Mountbatten-Windsor. No wonder there is sometimes confusion.
__________________

__________________

This precious stone set in the silver sea,......
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England,
Reply With Quote
  #2203  
Old 08-06-2013, 08:09 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is offline
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 2,605
Quote:
Originally Posted by cepe View Post

Thank you. It is interesting that (then)Princess Anne signed her marriage certificate to Mark Phillips as Mountbatten-Windsor. No wonder there is sometimes confusion.
She's not the only one, I believe Andrew also did so as well.

Royals have a few options when it comes to using a surname. They can use Windsor, Mountbatten-Windsor (if they're male-line descendants of HM and the DoE), the place that they're "of", or just their titles.
Reply With Quote
  #2204  
Old 08-06-2013, 08:34 PM
Roslyn's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tintenbar, Australia
Posts: 3,373
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
Personally, I think it all amounts to respect.
I amended my post after you quoted it, to clarify that I am not suggesting it is appropriate to address people in correspondence or personally, by a name other than the one for which they have expressed a preference.

I otherwise stick by what I have said though. I do not consider it disrespectful to refer to someone informally by a valid name other than the one they choose to use, provided that name is not an insulting one.
Reply With Quote
  #2205  
Old 08-06-2013, 08:46 PM
Dman's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 9,153
I just think people should show some respect and call Catherine by her official title. The Queen's former press secretary, Dickie Arbiter has even mentioned that he gets ticked off by people calling Catherine by her maiden name. She's a senior member of the royal family and practically third lady of the land, so I call her Catherine and address her as HRH The Duchess of Cambridge when I talk about her here and when discussing her with others.

Someday, we'll be able to address her as HRH The Princess of Wales and then at some point, Her Majesty The Queen. It's going to be a pleasure to do so.
__________________
"If you are always trying to be normal you will never know how amazing you can be."

Dr. Maya Angelou
Reply With Quote
  #2206  
Old 08-06-2013, 08:50 PM
BritishRoyalist's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Somewhere, United States
Posts: 853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dman View Post
I just think people should show some respect and call Catherine by her official title. The Queen's former press secretary, Dickie Arbiter has even mentioned that he gets ticked off by people calling Catherine by her maiden name. She's a senior member of the royal family and practically third lady of the land, so I call her Catherine and address her as HRH The Duchess of Cambridge when I talk about her here and when discussing her with others.
I was just wondering how you suppose to greet William and Catherine in public (In person) if you meet them?
__________________
Long Live the Queen!! The Real Queen of Hearts!
Reply With Quote
  #2207  
Old 08-06-2013, 08:53 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Rio de Janeiro and Petrópolis, Brazil
Posts: 1,124
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritishRoyalist View Post
I was just wondering how you suppose to greet William and Catherine in public (In person) if you meet them?
Your Royal Highness first, then you call them Sir and Ma'am during the conversation.
Reply With Quote
  #2208  
Old 08-06-2013, 08:55 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is offline
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 2,605
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritishRoyalist View Post

I was just wondering how you suppose to greet William and Catherine in public (In person) if you meet them?
I would expect "Your Royal Highness" or "Sir/Ma'am."
Reply With Quote
  #2209  
Old 08-06-2013, 09:00 PM
Dman's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 9,153
Yeah, 'Your Royal Highness' and 'Sir and Ma'am.' The bow and curtsey is all up to you. You don't have to do it if you don't like it.
__________________
"If you are always trying to be normal you will never know how amazing you can be."

Dr. Maya Angelou
Reply With Quote
  #2210  
Old 08-06-2013, 09:07 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Rio de Janeiro and Petrópolis, Brazil
Posts: 1,124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dman View Post
Yeah, 'Your Royal Highness' and 'Sir and Ma'am.' The bow and curtsey is all up to you. You don't have to do it if you don't like it.
My mother taught me how to bow when I was four. And she taught my sister how to courtsey when they were four too.
Reply With Quote
  #2211  
Old 08-09-2013, 12:34 AM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Hamilton, Canada
Posts: 490
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire View Post

My mother taught me how to bow when I was four. And she taught my sister how to courtsey when they were four too.
Shouldn't you have learned to bow from your father? Also, I think it should have been taught much earlier, around two-ish.
Reply With Quote
  #2212  
Old 08-09-2013, 01:03 AM
Roslyn's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tintenbar, Australia
Posts: 3,373
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahedwards2 View Post
Shouldn't you have learned to bow from your father? Also, I think it should have been taught much earlier, around two-ish.
Bowing is a really easy thing to do; anyone can teach a small child how to do it, man or woman. And why on earth would a two year old need to know how to bow?
Reply With Quote
  #2213  
Old 08-09-2013, 01:13 AM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is offline
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 2,605
I think often (not always) the more complicated aspects of manners (ie beyond like "please," "thank you," and covering your mouth when you sneeze) ends up falling more into the role of the mother than the father.
Reply With Quote
  #2214  
Old 08-09-2013, 01:27 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,287
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
I think often (not always) the more complicated aspects of manners (ie beyond like "please," "thank you," and covering your mouth when you sneeze) ends up falling more into the role of the mother than the father.
Heck nowadays companies have been known to hire people to teach their up and coming managers proper manners, everything from how to dress, to what fork to use and how to read a wine list because such things are no longer learned at home.
Reply With Quote
  #2215  
Old 08-09-2013, 01:30 AM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is offline
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 2,605
That's because we live in a sad and cruel world.

Although, if there's a fancy way to read a wine list, I'm afraid to admit that I don't know it.
Reply With Quote
  #2216  
Old 08-09-2013, 02:09 AM
Roslyn's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tintenbar, Australia
Posts: 3,373
Blame that excellent Aussie invention the splayd for the shameful dearth of knowledge about what fork to use. You can slice, scoop and stab with your splayd, and in the comfort of your chair in front of the TV, so there's no need to bother with table settings at all.

I try to avoid dining at restaurants that are likely to give me more than one fork. They are bound to be very expensive and serve very small portions.

And now many ways are there to read a wine list?
Reply With Quote
  #2217  
Old 08-09-2013, 02:39 AM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Top End, Australia
Posts: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
Blame that excellent Aussie invention the splayd for the shameful dearth of knowledge about what fork to use. You can slice, scoop and stab with your splayd, and in the comfort of your chair in front of the TV, so there's no need to bother with table settings at all.

I try to avoid dining at restaurants that are likely to give me more than one fork. They are bound to be very expensive and serve very small portions.

And now many ways are there to read a wine list?
In the very best restaurants the wait staff bring the cutlery for each course at that course. It saves the confusion having to work out whether you are picking up a salad fork or the fish fork.

The point about the wine list might be to prevent the horror of someone chosing a wine because they actually like it and committing the social faux pas of selecting a red wine with chicken or fish.
Reply With Quote
  #2218  
Old 08-09-2013, 02:54 AM
Roslyn's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tintenbar, Australia
Posts: 3,373
Quote:
Originally Posted by VictoriaB View Post
In the very best restaurants the wait staff bring the cutlery for each course at that course. It saves the confusion having to work out whether you are picking up a salad fork or the fish fork.
Now that's considerate!

Quote:
The point about the wine list might be to prevent the horror of someone chosing a wine because they actually like it and committing the social faux pas of selecting a red wine with chicken or fish.
Oh, the shame of such a faux pas. I am a red drinker and I don't like white wine, so I have often breached that "rule". And, wandering wildly even further off topic, since you are from the Top End and will "get" it, I will mention something amusing that happened to me in Port Douglas a few years ago. I ordered red wine with a meal, and it was served at room temperature, because, I was assured by the waiter, red wine must be served at room temperature! It was January and the restaurant had fans but not air conditioning. Room temperature was well over 30 degrees celsius. I put ice in it.
Reply With Quote
  #2219  
Old 08-09-2013, 03:11 AM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is offline
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 2,605
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post

Now that's considerate!

Oh, the shame of such a faux pas. I am a red drinker and I don't like white wine, so I have often breached that "rule". And, wandering wildly even further off topic, since you are from the Top End and will "get" it, I will mention something amusing that happened to me in Port Douglas a few years ago. I ordered red wine with a meal, and it was served at room temperature, because, I was assured by the waiter, red wine must be served at room temperature! It was January and the restaurant had fans but not air conditioning. Room temperature was well over 30 degrees celsius. I put ice in it.
The forks aren't as complicated as they look. If the table is set properly for your meal then you should have one set of cutlery for each meal, an you just start at the outside and work your way in, typically going up in size in fork until you get to the desert fork, which is smaller than the meat one.

My grandmother is one of those types who knows exactly what fork to use when, and where everything is supposed to go in a place setting, so growing up even though dinner at her place would only be a two course event (dinner and desert) setting the table was an elaborate event that the kids were tasked with and (lovingly) scolded when mistakes were made.
Reply With Quote
  #2220  
Old 08-09-2013, 03:22 AM
Lumutqueen's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Carlton, York, United Kingdom
Posts: 17,546
Where's the corner where this conversation went from titles to cutlery? I want to hop in a car and go back.
__________________

__________________
We Will Remember Them.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
british royal family, consort, spouse, styles and titles


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Titles and Styles of Harry, his Future Wife and Children Aussie Princess Prince Harry and Prince William 1115 01-14-2015 02:50 PM
Questions About [non-British] Styles and Titles Lord Sosnowitz Royal Ceremony and Protocol 729 10-09-2014 04:24 PM
Diana's Styles and Titles florawindsor Diana, Princess of Wales (1961-1997) 573 11-14-2013 10:59 AM
Styles and Titles Nahla10 Ruling Family of Dubai 36 08-08-2013 12:05 PM
Abdication Beatrix and Inauguration WA: Titles, Names, Succession, Precedence Princess Robijn King Willem-Alexander, Queen Máxima and family 67 05-24-2013 03:14 PM




Popular Tags
australia best outfit birth camilla carl philip chris o'neill crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria current events death duchess of cornwall fashion fashion poll felipe vi france funeral general news germany hereditary grand duchess stéphanie infanta leonor king carl xvi gustav king felipe king felipe vi king philippe king willem-alexander letizia maxima nobility official visit photo session picture of the week president hollande prince carl philip prince charles prince daniel prince frederik prince of wales princess alexia (2005 -) princess beatrice princess catharina-amalia princess eugenie princess madeleine princess marie princess mary princess mary daytime fashion princess mette-marit queen fabiola queen letizia queen letizia fashion queen letizia style queen mathilde queen maxima queen maxima fashion queen maxima style queen rania queen silvia queen sonja royal royal fashion sofia hellqvist spanish royals state visit sweden united states of america victoria wedding willem-alexander


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002-2012 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:57 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2015
Jelsoft Enterprises