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  #201  
Old 09-28-2006, 07:26 AM
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Thanks Warren! I knew you could solve it!
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  #202  
Old 10-05-2006, 08:03 AM
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The following question popped in my head last week and I wasn't able to finde the answer online, so but I have a feeling, that someone here has the answer.

The second son on the british king / queen has the title "Duke of York", currently it's Andrew. So, when will Harry become "Duke of York"? When his father becomes king? When Andrews dies? If before - what happens to Andrew and his daughters?

Thanks for the answer,
Akela
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  #203  
Old 10-05-2006, 08:43 AM
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Once you are granted a royal dukedom, it remains in your family line and continues to pass down through the eldest son. Since Andrew has no sons, the dukedom of York will return to the Crown after his death. It is possible, however, for a royal warrant to be issued allowing Beatrice to inherit the dukedom in her own right.

Harry is likely to marry before Andrew dies and will be granted another dukedom (Cambridge or Sussex) by The Queen or his father.
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  #204  
Old 11-22-2006, 02:49 PM
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What would William and Harry's titles have been if Charles had died?

Would they have stayed Princes of Wales or would they become The Prince William or The Prince Harry? If they lost the Wales title, would William go by the Duke of Cornwall title and Harry be given some other dukedom?
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  #205  
Old 11-22-2006, 10:58 PM
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I'm even more confused now, because I read that William would not get the Duke of Cornwall title if Charles died before the Queen. I thought it was the Prince of Wales title that he wouldn't get, unless the Queen gave him the title, but the Duchy of Cornwall title automatically went to the heir.
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  #206  
Old 11-22-2006, 11:16 PM
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William and Harry will always be Prince William of Wales and Prince Harry of Wales because that was their birth title. They're not "The Prince William" or "The Prince Harry" and won't be until their father is King. If Charles died before being King, they would never be The Prince William/Harry. If Charles died before becoming King, Prince William would become Duke of Cornwall, Rothesay etc etc but NOT the Prince of Wales. He would have to be invested as Prince of Wales. As I understand it, William would become the Duke of Cornwall as soon as Charles died.
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  #207  
Old 11-22-2006, 11:24 PM
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Hello Warren, I don't think we're talking so much about precedence as we are the difference between styles and titles?

Andrew has a title of Duke of York but he is styled as a Prince of the United Kingdom. The style of Prince of the United Kingdom could be held by a lot of people but the title can only be granted to one and right now its Andrew.

It would make sense that the title would be Andrew's and Edward's distinguishing feature.
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  #208  
Old 11-22-2006, 11:26 PM
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Andrew has a title of Duke of York and he has a title of Prince of the United Kingdom. A title is Prince/Duke/Earl etc. A style is His Royal Highess/Her Majesty etc. As I understand it.
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  #209  
Old 11-23-2006, 12:09 AM
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BeatrixFan, I thought the same thing as you, but then I read this

Quote:
If the eldest son of the Sovereign dies, his eldest son does not inherit the Dukedom. However, if the eldest son should die without children, his next brother obtains the Dukedom. Underlying these rules is the principle that only a son of the Sovereign—never a grandson, even if he is the Heir Apparent—may be Duke of Cornwall. It is possible for an individual to be Prince of Wales and Heir Apparent without being Duke of Cornwall. For example, King George II's heir-apparent, the future George III, was Prince of Wales, but not Duke of Cornwall (because he was the King's grandson, not the King's son).
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  #210  
Old 11-23-2006, 12:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A.C.C.
Princess Beatrice and Princess Eugenie will not loose their titles when they become 18. Titles are not taken away from you. Even Princess Diana and Sarah, Duchess of York did not loose their titles. They loss the right to HRH and I believe that is the only thing that can be taken from you.
Yes, they can. There has been talk of downsizing and that the Princesses of York may in fact, be demoted to the title a daughter of a duke, which is "lady". I think that's unfair at this point and likely won't happen as their father is very against it. That's why I think that they should make titles in the English peerage like a lot of the ones in the Scottish peerages available to "eldest heirs of the body" instead of "eldest male heirs of the body".
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  #211  
Old 11-23-2006, 03:07 AM
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Royal titles (eg Duke of York, Earl of Wessex) aren't strictly speaking "peerage" titles, but Royal creations. When the Queen created the York title for Prince Andrew the rules governing who can inherit the Dukedom were laid down. Unless these "rules" are changed by the Sovereign to allow a female successor, York will revert to the Crown on Andrew's death.
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  #212  
Old 11-23-2006, 03:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
Hello Warren, I don't think we're talking so much about precedence as we are the difference between styles and titles?
...It would make sense that the title would be Andrew's and Edward's distinguishing feature.
OK, take the Dukes of York, Gloucester and Kent. All are Princes of the United Kingdom, all are Royal Dukes, and all are Royal Highnesses. What distinguishes them in the "pecking order" is proximity to the Sovereign, which is otherwise called precedence.

The Duke of York and the Earl of Wessex "outrank" the Dukes of Gloucester and Kent not because of their titles or styles, but because Andrew and Edward are the sons of the Sovereign while Richard and Edward Kent are the grandsons of a Sovereign.
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  #213  
Old 11-23-2006, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Princess Beatrice and Princess Eugenie will not loose their titles when they become 18. Titles are not taken away from you. Even Princess Diana and Sarah, Duchess of York did not loose their titles. They loss the right to HRH and I believe that is the only thing that can be taken from you.

If the Queen issues new Letters Patent, changing the LPs from 1917 limiting the title HRH Prince/Princess to only the children of the heir to the throne for instance then both Beatrice and Eugenie would lose their HRH etc. That is exactly what happened in 1917 when various Princes and Princesses lost their titles.

Diana and Sarah lost the HRH because it came with the marriage and went when the marriages ended.

The style they used after their divorces was that of a divorced woman. If Sarah remarries she will cease to be eligible to use the Duchess of York style at all as she would be the wife of another man.
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  #214  
Old 11-23-2006, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetHomeNC
BeatrixFan, I thought the same thing as you, but then I read this

This is correct.

If Charles dies before becoming King there will be no Duke of Cornwall et. al. until William becomes king and he has a son.

William could still be created Prince of Wales by the Queen if she so chose.

George III was Prince of Wales but never Duke of Cornwall.

The Duke of Cornwall MUST satisfy TWO conditions - he must be the heir to the throne AND the eldest living son of the monarch. If he doesn't satisfy both of those criteria then he can't be the Duke of Cornwall as the situation currently stands.
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  #215  
Old 11-23-2006, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akela
The following question popped in my head last week and I wasn't able to finde the answer online, so but I have a feeling, that someone here has the answer.

The second son on the british king / queen has the title "Duke of York", currently it's Andrew. So, when will Harry become "Duke of York"? When his father becomes king? When Andrews dies? If before - what happens to Andrew and his daughters?

Thanks for the answer,
Akela
The second son of the British monarch is not always Duke of York - e.g. Victoria's second son was created Duke of Edinburgh and the York title was available due to the previous holder having died in 1828.

The Duke of York title, like all other dukedoms, except Cornwall, is inheritable into the second generation BUT since the late 1400s it has never had a male heir to inherit unless the holder has also become king in which case the title has merged with the crown as happened with both George V and George VI (but also the previous holders). Something similar has happened with the Duke of Clarence title with the titleholder usually dying without a male heir and hence the title becoming extinct after each creation.

If Andrew remarries and has a son that son will inherit the Duke of York title and in a couple of generations, like the Kent and Gloucestor, titles in the next generation, the holder will no longer be an HRH. If Andrew doesn't remarry and have a son then the title will be available for regrant when Andrew dies, assuming no adjustment to the LPs has been issued in the meantime allowing for female inheritance of the title.

As Harry will probably marry within the next five years or so and I expect Andrew to be alive when that happens Harry won't be created Duke of York. The next person to hold that title will probably be William's second son or possibly even William's son's second son.
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  #216  
Old 11-23-2006, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrissy57
The Duke of Cornwall MUST satisfy TWO conditions - he must be the heir to the throne AND the eldest living son of the monarch. If he doesn't satisfy both of those criteria then he can't be the Duke of Cornwall as the situation currently stands.
If we look at it from this side: isn't then the title of HRH The Duchess of Cornwall higher than the title of HRH The Princess of Wales? Because the Duchess of Cornwall is not only the wife of the Heir Apparent but of the eldest son of the souverain.... Could have made for a good chuckle somewhere...
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  #217  
Old 11-23-2006, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine
If we look at it from this side: isn't then the title of HRH The Duchess of Cornwall higher than the title of HRH The Princess of Wales? Because the Duchess of Cornwall is not only the wife of the Heir Apparent but of the eldest son of the souverain.... Could have made for a good chuckle somewhere...
They are equal since both are held by the wife of the heir to the throne. Her precedence flows from her husband's place in the line of succession and has nothing to do with her particular title or style.
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  #218  
Old 12-26-2006, 07:51 AM
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Baroness Thatcher is not the Rt. Hon because she is a Baroness but because she is a member of the Privy Council that advises the Queen. This is a strictly political honour and denotes seniority. Her title is "Her Ladyship" not "Her Excellency" which (in England) is most associated with ambassadors and evaporates once the office is surrendered.

Being able to wear the coronet and ermine at the opening of Parliament is a fun perk of being a peer. If somebody has a photo of a British life peer in full regalia it would be great if they could post it!
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  #219  
Old 01-14-2007, 05:55 PM
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Royal Widows

Two questions.

1. Has any royal widow enjoyed any romance after the death of her husband?

2. I know that divorcees lose their titles if they get married again, but what about widows?
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  #220  
Old 01-14-2007, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yvr girl
Two questions.

1. Has any royal widow enjoyed any romance after the death of her husband?

2. I know that divorcees lose their titles if they get married again, but what about widows?
1. There were rumours about Queen Victoria and John Brown, but I haven't seen any substantial proof that the two of them carried on anything. She was utterly devoted to Albert from the day he died to the day she died.


2. I believe if a widow remarries, she would lose the title she had prior to the remarriage unless she was styled as something from birth. Then I think she would keep the title. I think if you were born a Princess and your husband dies and you choose to remarry, you are still a Princess. If you were MADE a Princess and your husband dies and you choose to remarry, you would lose the title. Someone with a little more understand of the system might be able to clarify that.
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