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  #2141  
Old 08-05-2013, 08:24 AM
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Peter Hunt ‏@BBCPeterHunt 1h
What's in a name? Asked in 2011 by the BBC can't we just call William and Kate prince and princess, their spokesman, Paddy Harverson...(1/2)

Peter Hunt ‏@BBCPeterHunt 1h
that's absolutely natural, no one's going to have any argument with that... they are happy (with Duke/Duchess title), we are happy..

Peter Hunt ‏@BBCPeterHunt 1h
".., but if the public want to call them Prince William and Princess Catherine that's fine." (Paddy Harverson 2011)
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  #2142  
Old 08-05-2013, 08:37 AM
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So, if you are born a prince, you are always a prince even upon being given a ducal title upon marriage? And when you get a ducal title upon marriage you are still a prince but properly a duke with the rank of prince or is that just your wife who becomes a duchess on marrying with the rank of princess?

In other words the Duke of Gloucester is still a prince with a ducal title of the rank of a prince, but the Duchess of Gloucester is simply a duchess with the rank of princess?
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  #2143  
Old 08-05-2013, 08:39 AM
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Oh, and the Earl of Wessex is an earl with the rank of prince - is that correct?
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  #2144  
Old 08-05-2013, 09:02 AM
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That's right, despite William's dukedom, he's still a prince because he was born a prince. Catherine's a princess by marriage, although she holds her husbands official title, HRH The Duchess of Cambridge.

The Duchess of Gloucester is also a Princess by marriage but goes by her official title, HRH The Duchess of Gloucester. Same goes for Camilla and Sophie.
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  #2145  
Old 08-05-2013, 10:46 AM
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In one of the many books I have on Diana in my collection, there's one w/a clear picture of the page of her passport where occupation can be seen as "Princess of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland". The only reason there's any fuss over this w/Kate is thanks to the Palace not making this clearer during the lead up to the Wedding and now look at what's happening.

Well...That and the fact that unlike other Monarchies when a woman enters the Family on marriage and is made a Princess in her own right, that doesn't happen w/the Windsors. Always wondered when this outdated custom/protocol/whatever would end up making a mess for them and lo and behold....
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  #2146  
Old 08-05-2013, 11:00 AM
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She is a Princess-but she is not Princess Catherine.I think the Palace wanted to avoid Princess Catherine (maybe because of the Duchess of Cornwall not using her Princess title) and as Tom Sykes has suggested in the Daily Beast were therefore keen to push the " duchess " title.But of course the press have failed to use it ,have continued to call her Kate Middleton...would have been better if they had gone Princess Kate in my opinion.

Perhaps they now will? ( the press I mean)
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  #2147  
Old 08-05-2013, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Tiggersk8 View Post
Well...That and the fact that unlike other Monarchies when a woman enters the Family on marriage and is made a Princess in her own right
No, these women are princess by marriage.
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  #2148  
Old 08-05-2013, 11:28 AM
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This is the explanation as I see it: Catherine married a British-born prince, so by default is a princess in status/rank from her husband and would have been known as HRH Princess William of Wales. However, since William got an additional and higher royal dukedom title upon his marriage, Catherine's title is therefore HRH the Duchess of Cambridge.

The birth certificate was filled in according to Catherine's lower rank as princess; as you can see no title preceded her name on the document since she is not a princess by birth. She's known as Catherine Elizabeth, HRH the Duchess of Cambridge, occupation princess. The birth certificate doesn't even have "princess" in her title, only as occupation. William is known as HRH Prince William, Duke of Cambridge, title ahead of his name since he was born a prince.

If Catherine wants to use her husband's alternate title, she can call herself Princess William, but that's lower than the royal duchess title and she cannot call herself Princess Catherine or Duchess Catherine since she does not have these titles by right of birth. And why be known as a mere princess affiliated with your husband's name when a royal duchess is higher in stature?
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  #2149  
Old 08-05-2013, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
It seems that different 'spokemen' for BP said different things in 2011 e.g. the Express had an expert say:

“The Duchess of Cambridge would have been Her Royal Highness Princess William if she had not been given her new title, but it is not correct to say she is a Princess now.”

while the Guardian had the following statement:

Explaining the slightly confusing picture, a palace spokesman said: "She is not a princess in her own right. That title has not been conferred on her. Her title is that of duchess. So she is not Princess Catherine. And to call her Princess William of Wales is misleading."


Hence we have one spokesman saying 'it is not correct' and another saying 'to call her Princess William... is misleading'. Two different things:

1. - not a princess at all - so a morganatic marriage

2. she is a princess but has a higher title and so it would be misleading to use her lower title.
The confusion is that Prince/Princess is a style, not a title, in the UK. The titular dignity reflects royal rank and is governed by the will of The Sovereign, while a Peer has a title that, once created, could only be removed by Act of Parliament.

Catherine took the rank of her husband upon marriage and is "HRH Princess William" as the wife of a male-line grandson of The Queen. She is not a princess in her own right, but holds higher status than a regular Duchess because her husband's precedence flows from his royal rank, rather than his dukedom's creation.

Her title is "The Duchess of Cambridge" as the wife of a Duke. Her rank is "HRH Princess William" as the wife of a male-line grandson of The Sovereign.
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  #2150  
Old 08-05-2013, 04:35 PM
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The confusion is that Prince/Princess is a style, not a title, in the UK. The titular dignity reflects royal rank and is governed by the will of The Sovereign, while a Peer has a title that, once created, could only be removed by Act of Parliament.

Catherine took the rank of her husband upon marriage and is "HRH Princess William" as the wife of a male-line grandson of The Queen. She is not a princess in her own right, but holds higher status than a regular Duchess because her husband's precedence flows from his royal rank, rather than his dukedom's creation.

Her title is "The Duchess of Cambridge" as the wife of a Duke. Her rank is "HRH Princess William" as the wife of a male-line grandson of The Sovereign.

I don't understand why you quoted my post in making this one.

Mine was clearly referring to the language used in the different reports which is causing some confusion in the general public.

It is clear from my many posts on this issue that I do understand how the system works.

Your post is correct but I don't get any connection between it and my post on the different words being used in the press in 2011 and then in later reports, including the Express article, that has triggered this latest discussion.
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  #2151  
Old 08-05-2013, 11:06 PM
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Well, I hope this kerfuffle is finally put to rest. I'm glad I can sleep tonight, not having to mull over "is Kate a duchess?" "Is she a princess?"
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  #2152  
Old 08-06-2013, 12:40 AM
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But, regardless of her birth, she will become Princess of Wales one day, right? Will she be Princess William of Wales?
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  #2153  
Old 08-06-2013, 12:40 AM
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Finally through all the crap, the ending is in sight.i don't know what's so hard about it.


1.) she became a princess William. Xxxxxx at marriage. t whatever terri,trial designation he has)

2.) throw in the dukedom she is now HRH. The duke and Duchess of Cambridge

Until she ascends to the title "the princes of wales and duchess of rothesty she will follow custom sand stay HRH The Duchess of Cambrisdge.



Queen victoria herself said it "a royal duke ranks higher than a regular princes.


So she is once and for all a princess of the uk but until she becomes the POW, she will use her current highest title.
The only two princess who married in the family who reverted or had new titles agreed upon were simple situations.

1.) HRH the duchess of kent after the death of her husband did not like the word dowager, and to make room for Edwards future
Wife. Marina simply reverted to her own titles .

2.) alice asked her aunt the queen if she could be known as princess alice, duchess of Gloucester .
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  #2154  
Old 08-06-2013, 12:57 AM
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I would like to be known as Princess Alice. Love that name.
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  #2155  
Old 08-06-2013, 01:00 AM
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But, regardless of her birth, she will become Princess of Wales one day, right? Will she be Princess William of Wales?
IF William is created Prince of Wales, Catherine will be The Princess of Wales.
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  #2156  
Old 08-06-2013, 01:38 AM
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But, regardless of her birth, she will become Princess of Wales one day, right? Will she be Princess William of Wales?
She will become HRH The Princess of Wales if, and only if, William is created HRH The Prince of Wales.

No she won't be known as Princess William of Wales but simply The Princess of Wales - just as Diana was never known as Princess Charles of Wales but as HRH The Princess of Wales.
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  #2157  
Old 08-06-2013, 01:45 AM
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Originally Posted by carlfraley View Post
Finally through all the crap, the ending is in sight.i don't know what's so hard about it.


1.) she became a princess William. Xxxxxx at marriage. t whatever terri,trial designation he has)

2.) throw in the dukedom she is now HRH. The duke and Duchess of Cambridge

Until she ascends to the title "the princes of wales and duchess of rothesty she will follow custom sand stay HRH The Duchess of Cambrisdge.



Queen victoria herself said it "a royal duke ranks higher than a regular princes.


So she is once and for all a princess of the uk but until she becomes the POW, she will use her current highest title.
The only two princess who married in the family who reverted or had new titles agreed upon were simple situations.

1.) HRH the duchess of kent after the death of her husband did not like the word dowager, and to make room for Edwards future
Wife. Marina simply reverted to her own titles .

2.) alice asked her aunt the queen if she could be known as princess alice, duchess of Gloucester .

A couple of corrections:

1. Catherine won't 'ascend' to the titles of Duchess of Rothesay or Princess of Wales. Only monarch's acsend to thrones.

When Charles becomes King, William will automatically become HRH The Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge so Catherine will become HRH The Duchess of Cornwall and Cambridge. They will be known as TRH The Duke and Duchess of Rothesay in Scotland, as their Scottish title is an Earldom they will only use the Rothesay title.

2. If Charles creates William, HRH The Prince of Wales, then Catherine will be HRH The Princess of Wales.

3. The Duchess of Kent didn't 'revert' to her original title as it wasn't recognised in the UK. She sought the permission of The Queen to be known as Princess Marina and the Queen agreed. It also wasn't after her husband's death but after her son's marriage - so from 1942 until 1961 she was known officially as HRH The Duchess of Kent and after her son's marriage as HRH Princess Marina, The Duchess of Kent.

4. Following that precedent The Queen allowed The Duchess of Gloucester to be known as HRH Princess Alice, The Duchess of Gloucester rather than use the term The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester.
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  #2158  
Old 08-06-2013, 11:00 AM
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only time Catherine will use her name with a title is when she becomes queen. That's when she'll be known as Queen Catherine.
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  #2159  
Old 08-06-2013, 11:30 AM
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only time Catherine will use her name with a title is when she becomes queen. That's when she'll be known as Queen Catherine.
Exactly. But people will call her Queen Kate, or even Queen Kate Middleton.
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  #2160  
Old 08-06-2013, 11:35 AM
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I'm sure you are correct, BrazilianEmpire!
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