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  #2061  
Old 04-11-2013, 07:05 PM
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The Court Circular announcing the birth of Prince Charles began "Her Royal Highness The Princess Elizabeth, Duchess of Edinburgh, was safely delivered..." I THINK the rest was "of an infant prince at (time) today. Her Royal Highness and her son are both doing well." I don't have my books in front of me for the exact wording of the second half of the announcement, but the first part I know is correct.
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  #2062  
Old 04-14-2013, 01:38 PM
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I recently read a comment on another thread relating to the Earl and Countess of Strathearn's recent engagements in Scotland and wondering when Baron and Baroness Carrickfergus would have their first official engagements in their area. Is it correct that this is how William and Catherine will be known in Northern Ireland?

This got me to thinking, I know that The Prince of Wales is known as The Duke of Rothesay in Scotland, as this is the traditional title held by the heir to the Scottish throne, however wasn't aware that other members of the Royal Family used Scottish titles in Scotland and had always thought that they simply used their senior title? Duke of Edinburgh, Duke of York, Duke of Kent etc. Is there a historical precedent for this? I can just about see that Prince Andrew could be known as Earl of Inverness in Scotland (as he doesnt have any sons) but if Prince Richard say, were to be referred to as Baron Culloden in Scotland, this would surely cause confusion with his grandson, who uses the Baron Culloden title by curtesy?

Conversely even if using appropriate titles for the region of the UK only applies those members of the Royal Family in direct line to the throne (ie Charles and William use Scottish titles in Scotland) then shouldn't it be the same for England, Wales and Northern Ireland? If so Prince Charles would use Duke of Cornwall in England, Prince of Wales in Wales and also have a Northern Irish Title. Similarly William would need a Welsh Title to complement Cambridge, Strathearn and Carrickfergus. (I do think there was a certain irony that despite living in Wales, the titles that the Queen conferred on Prince William did not include anything to reflect this.)
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  #2063  
Old 04-14-2013, 02:24 PM
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AFAIK it is not official that the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge should use their "Scottish" title while in Scotland. After the Act of Union in 1701 all titles created are in the Peerage of the Uk- there cannot be new creations under Scottish or English law.

Of course the title of "The Prince of Wales"as well as the "The Duke of Cornwall" have been a title in the peerage of England before that (so they are no Welsh or Cornish titles), just like "The Duke of Rothesay" has been a title of the peerage of Scotland.

Different letters patents rule how these titles are acquired by the heir to the throne and they are used traditionally like they were used before the Act of Union. Thus, in Scotland, the title of the heir of the Throne is "Duke of Rothesay" and "The Prince of Scotland" (another of Charles' titles) while on "English soil" (including Northern Ireland) he is The Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall as heir.

But - William's as well as the other titles of the Royal family are "British titles"- all created after the Union of both kingdoms, so are valid in either. It's just the papers who want William to be recognized as the heir of the heir of Scotland as well as of England (which included Wales and Northern Ireland).
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  #2064  
Old 04-14-2013, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Pemberley View Post
I recently read a comment on another thread relating to the Earl and Countess of Strathearn's recent engagements in Scotland and wondering when Baron and Baroness Carrickfergus would have their first official engagements in their area. Is it correct that this is how William and Catherine will be known in Northern Ireland?
That is how they should theoretically be addressed yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Pemberley View Post
This got me to thinking, I know that The Prince of Wales is known as The Duke of Rothesay in Scotland, as this is the traditional title held by the heir to the Scottish throne, however wasn't aware that other members of the Royal Family used Scottish titles in Scotland and had always thought that they simply used their senior title? Duke of Edinburgh, Duke of York, Duke of Kent etc. Is there a historical precedent for this? I can just about see that Prince Andrew could be known as Earl of Inverness in Scotland (as he doesnt have any sons) but if Prince Richard say, were to be referred to as Baron Culloden in Scotland, this would surely cause confusion with his grandson, who uses the Baron Culloden title by curtesy?
The Duke of Edinburgh if you notice has it's own Scottish ring to it. Andrew is more than likely to be referred to as having the title Earl of Inverness but not likely to be addressed by it. Barely anyone knows who Prince Richard is let alone his grandson so that's not an issue.

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Originally Posted by Lord Pemberley View Post
C If so Prince Charles would use Duke of Cornwall in England, Prince of Wales in Wales and also have a Northern Irish Title. Similarly William would need a Welsh Title to complement Cambridge, Strathearn and Carrickfergus. (I do think there was a certain irony that despite living in Wales, the titles that the Queen conferred on Prince William did not include anything to reflect this.)
Prince of Wales is similar to the Crown Prince title that European heirs hold. There are stipulations to fulfil both POW and DOC, one can be POW and not be DOC etc. So Charles having two 'main' titles has it's uses. William didn't need a Wales connection as a title, he will one day be The Prince of Wales and he is the son of the current POW.
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  #2065  
Old 04-14-2013, 03:34 PM
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The Prince of Wales, The Duke of Cambridge and the Duke of York are all known by their Scottish titles when undertaking engagements in Scotland. I doubt if Kent or Gloucester use their Scottish titles when in Scotland but that may be because those titles are currently being used as courtesy titles by their son or grandson. I have never seen a report of a member of the BRF using their Irish titles when undertaking engagements in Northern Ireland.
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  #2066  
Old 04-14-2013, 05:31 PM
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According to the British monarchy website Andrew is referred to as Earl of Inverness in Inverness (not Scotlant) and as Baron Killyleagh when in Killyleagh but not elsewhere in Ireland.
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  #2067  
Old 06-17-2013, 05:49 AM
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Would Diana have remained a Princess if she remarried?

After divorce, was Diana a Princess in her own right, or simply because she had been married to the Prince of Wales? If she had remarried, would she have remained a Princess?
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  #2068  
Old 06-17-2013, 06:15 AM
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After divorce, was Diana a Princess in her own right, or simply because she had been married to the Prince of Wales? If she had remarried, would she have remained a Princess?
She wasn't a Princess in her own right. She held the divorced style of her husband, Diana, Princess of Wales. She was accorded the same precedence as before get divorce as she was mother to the future king.
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  #2069  
Old 06-17-2013, 06:20 AM
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She was never a Princess in her own right.

Had she remarried she would have lost the right to use the Princess of Wales styling as part of her name.
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  #2070  
Old 06-17-2013, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
She wasn't a Princess in her own right. She held the divorced style of her husband, Diana, Princess of Wales. She was accorded the same precedence as before get divorce as she was mother to the future king.
According to Charles and Diana Agree on Divorce Terms - NYTimes.com :

"The removal of the "Royal Highness" title, which separates the royal family from the rest of British nobility, officially obliges Diana to curtsey to others who have it -- her ex-husband, for instance, and even her own children. But the palace said, rather cryptically, that Princess Diana will continue to be "regarded as a member of the royal family" and "will from time to time receive invitations to state and national public occasions" at the invitation "of the sovereign or the Government."
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  #2071  
Old 06-17-2013, 06:56 AM
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And?
Diana was mother of the future King she was never going to be excluded and her patronages kept her in the loop. William apparently told her when he was King he would give her her HRH back.

As iluvbertie explained she would have lost the right to use her divorced style had she remarried.
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  #2072  
Old 06-17-2013, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by royal-blue View Post
After divorce, was Diana a Princess in her own right, or simply because she had been married to the Prince of Wales? If she had remarried, would she have remained a Princess?
In Britain you are a Princess either by birth or by marriage.
If you are one by marriage, you are never directly styled "Princess (Your Name)", but instead "Princess (Your husband's name)".
So Diana was Princess Charles. And since he is Prince of Wales, by courtesy, as all wives of peers, she is Princess of Wales.
After divorce, she is automatically neither Princess Charles nor Princess of Wales.
However, since wives of British princes are not given any surnames, it was announced that Diana and Sarah, after divorce, can use their peerage titles at the end of their name, just in place of their surnames.
Thus Diana came to be known as Diana,Princess of Wales.
And Sarah came to be known as Sarah,Duchess of York.
That does not mean either of them is a Princess or a Duchess.
Once they remarry, they get new surnames right eg. Diana Smith or Sarah Cavill. So Diana wouldnt be known as Diana, Princess of Wales anymore.But Idoubt things would have hardly changed and media continued to refer to her as Princess Diana throughout her life. Or atleast as long as she helped them sell..
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  #2073  
Old 06-17-2013, 07:46 AM
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Just an additional note - the styles that Diana and Sarah used after their divorces are the same as any divorced wife of a peer - using the former title as a surname - so the divorced wife of The Duke of Hogwarts would also be known as Jane, Duchess of Hogwarts. This styling wasn't/isn't restricted to ex-wives of princes.
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  #2074  
Old 06-17-2013, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by royal-blue View Post
"The removal of the "Royal Highness" title, which separates the royal family from the rest of British nobility, officially obliges Diana to curtsey to others who have it -- her ex-husband, for instance, and even her own children. But the palace said, rather cryptically, that Princess Diana will continue to be "regarded as a member of the royal family" and "will from time to time receive invitations to state and national public occasions" at the invitation "of the sovereign or the Government."
Right, which simply meant The Queen was walking a fine line for the sake of her grandsons. Officially, Diana lost her royal rank and was no longer a princess, but would continue to be regarded as one in style. On official occasions, she would not be banished to the back row, but allowed appropriate place next to her sons when so invited.

I doubt she would have retained the style of a princess had she remarried.
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  #2075  
Old 06-17-2013, 02:32 PM
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The fact she would have to curtsey to her husband and even children shows she did not keep the same precedence she had when married.
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  #2076  
Old 06-17-2013, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by royal-blue View Post

The fact she would have to curtsey to her husband and even children shows she did not keep the same precedence she had when married.
Ah, but the fact that she had to curtsey at all was because Charles was no longer her husband.
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  #2077  
Old 06-17-2013, 03:05 PM
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The fact she would have to curtsey to her husband and even children shows she did not keep the same precedence she had when married.
Source Buckingham Palace -
PR Newswire UK: DIVORCE: STATUS AND ROLE OF THE PRINCESS OF WALES

Quote:
As she will be regarded as a member of the Royal Family, The
Princess will from time to time receive invitations to State and
national public occasions, as for any other member of the Royal
Family, at the invitation of The Sovereign or the Government. On
these occasions The Princess will be accorded the precedence she
enjoys at present.
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  #2078  
Old 06-17-2013, 05:08 PM
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We must remember that Diana's position was unique in that she was the divorced wife of the Prince of Wales but she was the mother of the future King and so they had to make up some new rules that applied to her situation which was different to Sarah's for instance. We know Sarah isn't invited to royal events even though she is the mother of two of the Queen's grandchildren, and nor, of course, is Mark but Diana would have still been invited.
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Old 06-17-2013, 06:13 PM
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Diana was also very popular with the press and the population at large. She was a draw with many foreign dignitaries as well. This "both fish and fowl" solution suited Diana's and the BRF's needs and wants. This may sound cynical - but it was eminently practical, IMHO.
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  #2080  
Old 06-18-2013, 06:55 PM
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Things would be so much simpler if all these titles and styles were swept away and then only the monarch would have a title. The rest of the royal family would be able to lead normal lives then.

Having people titled princes and princesses leads to class division, as they were born into a position with responsibility which virtually places them above the rest of society.
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