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  #2061  
Old 04-09-2013, 05:54 PM
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No. The Sovereign is the fount of all honours and she cannot hold the title of a wife of a Duke as a reigning Queen. Her husband was granted precedence and place next to HM, but he is a Peer and Prince of the UK, making him her subject.

If she abdicated the throne, she would again be HRH The Princess Elizabeth, Duchess of Edinburgh as the daughter of The Sovereign and wife of a Duke.
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  #2062  
Old 04-09-2013, 06:18 PM
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I have seen almost all vintage videos of BRF (Pathe/BBC) on Youtube, and read pretty much regarding news and reporting of late 40s and early 50s, I can say pretty confidently that NO WHERE HAS Princess Elizabeth been referred to as Duchess of Edinburgh, before her accession.
She was always referred to as The Princess Elizabeth.
Even if they attended together, they were always mentioned as Princess Elizabeth and The Duke of Edinburgh, NEVER EVER as The Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh.
(I actually long to see one reference of her as Dss of E, something practical, other than Wiki).
So though she is automatically the DssOfE the moment she married The DoE , that title is absolutely irrelevant in her case, past, present or future..
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  #2063  
Old 04-09-2013, 06:32 PM
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The documents my mother has from the expected tour of Australia in 1952 refer to them as TRH The Princess Elizabeth, The Duchess of Edinburgh and The Duke of Edinburgh - official documents from the UK to the British High Commission in Canberra. The books I have about their family life at that time as well - TRH The Princess Elizabeth, The Duchess of Edinburgh and The Duke of Edinburgh at Home.

The Court Circular in The Times from a number of dates in the late 40s and early 50s that my mother kept for different reasons also refer to her as TRH The Princess Elizabeth, The Duchess of Edinburgh..

Like Kate is often called Kate or Andrew, Andrew colloquially she was still called Elizabeth or The Princess Elizabeth but official HRH The Princess Elizabeth, The Duchess of Edinburgh.
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  #2064  
Old 04-09-2013, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vkrish View Post
She was always referred to as The Princess Elizabeth.
Even if they attended together, they were always mentioned as Princess Elizabeth and The Duke of Edinburgh, NEVER EVER as The Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh.
I have seen/heard videos where Princess Elizabeth was referred to as the Duchess of Edinburgh. Among them, is the BBC announcement of the birth of her son.

BBC - Archive - Princess Elizabeth - The Birth of HRH Prince Charles
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  #2065  
Old 04-09-2013, 06:52 PM
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From the responses to the original question "Is the Queen still Duchess of Edinburgh" - the responses that say yes all seem to refer to her when she was Princess Elizabeth. So I understand HRH PRincess Elizabeth, Duchess of Edinburgh, in the same way I understand HRH Princess MArgaret, Countess of Snowdon.

BUT - once she became Queen - does this still apply? Can a Monarch still carry the title of the wife of a peer (I know that they cannot be a peer in their own right).
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  #2066  
Old 04-09-2013, 06:59 PM
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Her Majesty was the Duchess of Edinburgh only until her accession to the Throne. Once she became a Queen, she - as a Monarch - also became the fount of all honours and as such could not hold a peerage title of her own, or one by marriage.
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  #2067  
Old 04-09-2013, 07:30 PM
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Thank you Artemisia and cepe for clearing that and that BBC source.
This is the first one I heard of her being referred to as DssOfE. I missed it bcos it wasnt a vid on Youtube..
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  #2068  
Old 04-09-2013, 08:38 PM
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She was referred to as The Princess Elizabeth as the heiress presumptive and eldest child of George VI. However, she was also The Duchess of Edinburgh as the wife of a Peer.

Obviously, as the heir to her father, her own royal rank and style took precedence over her title as the wife of a Duke, but she held both.
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  #2069  
Old 04-11-2013, 07:05 PM
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The Court Circular announcing the birth of Prince Charles began "Her Royal Highness The Princess Elizabeth, Duchess of Edinburgh, was safely delivered..." I THINK the rest was "of an infant prince at (time) today. Her Royal Highness and her son are both doing well." I don't have my books in front of me for the exact wording of the second half of the announcement, but the first part I know is correct.
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  #2070  
Old 04-14-2013, 01:38 PM
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I recently read a comment on another thread relating to the Earl and Countess of Strathearn's recent engagements in Scotland and wondering when Baron and Baroness Carrickfergus would have their first official engagements in their area. Is it correct that this is how William and Catherine will be known in Northern Ireland?

This got me to thinking, I know that The Prince of Wales is known as The Duke of Rothesay in Scotland, as this is the traditional title held by the heir to the Scottish throne, however wasn't aware that other members of the Royal Family used Scottish titles in Scotland and had always thought that they simply used their senior title? Duke of Edinburgh, Duke of York, Duke of Kent etc. Is there a historical precedent for this? I can just about see that Prince Andrew could be known as Earl of Inverness in Scotland (as he doesnt have any sons) but if Prince Richard say, were to be referred to as Baron Culloden in Scotland, this would surely cause confusion with his grandson, who uses the Baron Culloden title by curtesy?

Conversely even if using appropriate titles for the region of the UK only applies those members of the Royal Family in direct line to the throne (ie Charles and William use Scottish titles in Scotland) then shouldn't it be the same for England, Wales and Northern Ireland? If so Prince Charles would use Duke of Cornwall in England, Prince of Wales in Wales and also have a Northern Irish Title. Similarly William would need a Welsh Title to complement Cambridge, Strathearn and Carrickfergus. (I do think there was a certain irony that despite living in Wales, the titles that the Queen conferred on Prince William did not include anything to reflect this.)
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  #2071  
Old 04-14-2013, 02:24 PM
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AFAIK it is not official that the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge should use their "Scottish" title while in Scotland. After the Act of Union in 1701 all titles created are in the Peerage of the Uk- there cannot be new creations under Scottish or English law.

Of course the title of "The Prince of Wales"as well as the "The Duke of Cornwall" have been a title in the peerage of England before that (so they are no Welsh or Cornish titles), just like "The Duke of Rothesay" has been a title of the peerage of Scotland.

Different letters patents rule how these titles are acquired by the heir to the throne and they are used traditionally like they were used before the Act of Union. Thus, in Scotland, the title of the heir of the Throne is "Duke of Rothesay" and "The Prince of Scotland" (another of Charles' titles) while on "English soil" (including Northern Ireland) he is The Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall as heir.

But - William's as well as the other titles of the Royal family are "British titles"- all created after the Union of both kingdoms, so are valid in either. It's just the papers who want William to be recognized as the heir of the heir of Scotland as well as of England (which included Wales and Northern Ireland).
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  #2072  
Old 04-14-2013, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Pemberley View Post
I recently read a comment on another thread relating to the Earl and Countess of Strathearn's recent engagements in Scotland and wondering when Baron and Baroness Carrickfergus would have their first official engagements in their area. Is it correct that this is how William and Catherine will be known in Northern Ireland?
That is how they should theoretically be addressed yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Pemberley View Post
This got me to thinking, I know that The Prince of Wales is known as The Duke of Rothesay in Scotland, as this is the traditional title held by the heir to the Scottish throne, however wasn't aware that other members of the Royal Family used Scottish titles in Scotland and had always thought that they simply used their senior title? Duke of Edinburgh, Duke of York, Duke of Kent etc. Is there a historical precedent for this? I can just about see that Prince Andrew could be known as Earl of Inverness in Scotland (as he doesnt have any sons) but if Prince Richard say, were to be referred to as Baron Culloden in Scotland, this would surely cause confusion with his grandson, who uses the Baron Culloden title by curtesy?
The Duke of Edinburgh if you notice has it's own Scottish ring to it. Andrew is more than likely to be referred to as having the title Earl of Inverness but not likely to be addressed by it. Barely anyone knows who Prince Richard is let alone his grandson so that's not an issue.

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Originally Posted by Lord Pemberley View Post
C If so Prince Charles would use Duke of Cornwall in England, Prince of Wales in Wales and also have a Northern Irish Title. Similarly William would need a Welsh Title to complement Cambridge, Strathearn and Carrickfergus. (I do think there was a certain irony that despite living in Wales, the titles that the Queen conferred on Prince William did not include anything to reflect this.)
Prince of Wales is similar to the Crown Prince title that European heirs hold. There are stipulations to fulfil both POW and DOC, one can be POW and not be DOC etc. So Charles having two 'main' titles has it's uses. William didn't need a Wales connection as a title, he will one day be The Prince of Wales and he is the son of the current POW.
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  #2073  
Old 04-14-2013, 03:34 PM
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The Prince of Wales, The Duke of Cambridge and the Duke of York are all known by their Scottish titles when undertaking engagements in Scotland. I doubt if Kent or Gloucester use their Scottish titles when in Scotland but that may be because those titles are currently being used as courtesy titles by their son or grandson. I have never seen a report of a member of the BRF using their Irish titles when undertaking engagements in Northern Ireland.
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  #2074  
Old 04-14-2013, 05:31 PM
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According to the British monarchy website Andrew is referred to as Earl of Inverness in Inverness (not Scotlant) and as Baron Killyleagh when in Killyleagh but not elsewhere in Ireland.
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  #2075  
Old 04-24-2013, 10:50 AM
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When Charles becomes King, do William and Catherine become Prince and Princess of Wales?

Case Histories
King Edward VII, King George V were both Prince of Wales before becoming Kings in their own right.
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  #2076  
Old 04-24-2013, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by angieuk View Post
When Charles becomes King, do William and Catherine become Prince and Princess of Wales?

Case Histories
King Edward VII, King George V were both Prince of Wales before becoming Kings in their own right.
Its not an automatic thing. It will depend on if Charles wants to create William the Prince of Wales.
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  #2077  
Old 04-24-2013, 10:56 AM
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When Charles becomes King, do William and Catherine become Prince and Princess of Wales?

Case Histories
King Edward VII, King George V were both Prince of Wales before becoming Kings in their own right.
It is not automatic but is within the gift of the monarch. William automatically becomes Duke of Cornwall. It is expected that he will become Prince of Wales but, for example, in the case of George V he became PoW after c. 6months.
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  #2078  
Old 04-24-2013, 11:07 AM
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Does that mean that William and Catherine will be known as Duke and Duchess of Cornwall when Charles is King?? Where does that leave Cambridge?

King George V Prince of Wales after 6 months automatically? Do you mean 1901 after his father became King Edward VII?

As I remember King Edward VIII having to be created Prince of Wales (1911) but I don't remember George V or Edward VII having any such investiture in Wales?

Sorry, am feeling a bit confused??
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  #2079  
Old 04-24-2013, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angieuk View Post
Does that mean that William and Catherine will be known as Duke and Duchess of Cornwall when Charles is King?? Where does that leave Cambridge?
They will be The Duke and Duchess of Cornwall and Cambridge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by angieuk View Post
King George V Prince of Wales after 6 months automatically? Do you mean 1901 after his father became King Edward VII?
In November 1901, George was created Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester.

Quote:
Originally Posted by angieuk View Post
As I remember King Edward VIII having to be created Prince of Wales (1911) but I don't remember George V or Edward VII having any such investiture in Wales?
An investiture is not required to become Prince of Wales, it is a title granted by the Monarch and can be done at anytime, anywhere.
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  #2080  
Old 04-24-2013, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by angieuk View Post
Does that mean that William and Catherine will be known as Duke and Duchess of Cornwall when Charles is King?? Where does that leave Cambridge?

King George V Prince of Wales after 6 months automatically? Do you mean 1901 after his father became King Edward VII?

As I remember King Edward VIII having to be created Prince of Wales (1911) but I don't remember George V or Edward VII having any such investiture in Wales?

Sorry, am feeling a bit confused??
The title of Prince of Wales is not automatic and neither is an investiture. EVII made George (later GV) PoW after c. 6 months of being King. It is entirely up to the monarch.

The heir to the throne is automatically Duke of Cornwall on the accession to the throne of the monarch. Example is when EVII became King, George became Duke of Cornwall and York (he was previously Duke of York). Rather a long title and he was generally known as Duke of Cornwall.

William will become Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge. But again it's a bit long and will probably just be known as the D of Cornwall. assuming he becomes PoW, Duke of Cornwall will be his secondary title as it is currently with Charles.
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