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  #1981  
Old 03-20-2013, 04:55 PM
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Here's an argument regarding the title of Prince of Wales that I don't think has been considered yet.

To quote Wikipedia (the great source that it is) "Prince of Wales is a title traditionally granted to the heir apparent to the reigning monarch of the United Kingdom of Great Britain..." etc.

The wording of this (which of course by no means is official) implies that the title "Prince of Wales" can be similar to that of "Duke of Lancaster" or "Lord of Mann" - masculine in title regardless of the gender of the holder.

In all technicality, there has never been a female heir apparent before, but it has always been a possibility. The heir apparent is not the first born son but rather the heir whose position cannot be supplanted by the birth of another heir. As a princess, HM was not the heir apparent because her father could have always had a son (however unlikely). Similarly, Queen Victoria was not heir apparent because her uncle, William IV, could have had that unlikely child.

In the case that the monarch's eldest surviving son has only daughters, then predeceases the monarch himself, the heir apparent is female - she cannot be displaced in the line of succession - this would have happened had George IV died before his father, in which case his daughter, Princess Caroline of Wales would have been the heir apparent and could have been eligible for the title Prince of Wales. Had both Edward VIII and George VI predeceased their father (or had Edward VIII remained on the throne with the stipulation that his offspring could not inherit, and George VI still died first) then HM would have been heir apparent as well.

So yeah. My argument is that the female heir apparent, be it under the new laws or the unlikely circumstances of the old ones, is eligible for the masculine title Prince of Wales, and as such their is no need to change things.
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  #1982  
Old 03-20-2013, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
So yeah. My argument is that the female heir apparent, be it under the new laws or the unlikely circumstances of the old ones, is eligible for the masculine title Prince of Wales, and as such their is no need to change things.
I don't think this is the case. Didn't the politicians suggested to King George VI to create Princess Elizabeth Princess of Wales?
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  #1983  
Old 03-20-2013, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire View Post

I don't think this is the case. Didn't the politicians suggested to King George VI to create Princess Elizabeth Princess of Wales?
I think it was suggested, but regardless that would have been a huge change from how the system works as Elizabeth wasn't heir apparent.
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  #1984  
Old 03-20-2013, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post

So yeah. My argument is that the female heir apparent, be it under the new laws or the unlikely circumstances of the old ones, is eligible for the masculine title Prince of Wales, and as such their is no need to change things.
Wiki's answer:

Quote:
When a title was sought for the future Elizabeth II, the possibility of investing her as Princess of Wales in her own right was raised. This suggestion was rejected, because Princess of Wales is a courtesy title held by the wife of the Prince of Wales. If it were used by Princess Elizabeth, it would have degraded her right as a Princess of the United Kingdom unless Letters Patent or Legislation were introduced to the contrary. Furthermore, if the then Princess Elizabeth had been given the title of Princess of Wales, there would have been the problem of what to call her future husband. Therefore, King George VI decided not to give his elder daughter the title.
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  #1985  
Old 03-20-2013, 05:16 PM
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So much speculation on so many threads.

Re Lumutqueens response on Princess of Wales. I thought that the daughter of George IV was Charlotte, Princess of Wales - is that not the case?
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  #1986  
Old 03-20-2013, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by cepe View Post
So much speculation on so many threads.

Re Lumutqueens response on Princess of Wales. I thought that the daughter of George IV was Charlotte, Princess of Wales - is that not the case?
Princess Charlotte of Wales, daughter of George when he was The Prince of Wales.
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  #1987  
Old 03-20-2013, 05:27 PM
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Thank you Lumutqueen. Nice to have an concise answer to the question. :)
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  #1988  
Old 03-20-2013, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Spheno View Post
The eldest living son of the monarch, if he exists, IS always the heir apparent...
Not exactly true, I am afraid. If, for instance, Prince Charles were to predecease the Queen, her eldest living son would be Prince Andrew. However, Prince William - and not Andrew - would be the heir apparent.
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  #1989  
Old 03-20-2013, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
Not exactly true, I am afraid. If, for instance, Prince Charles were to predecease the Queen, her eldest living son would be Prince Andrew. However, Prince William - and not Andrew - would be the heir apparent.
thanks
it means than the duchy law does have two criteria
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  #1990  
Old 03-20-2013, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Spheno View Post
thanks
it means than the duchy law does have two criteria
As explained before yes. You have to be heir apparent and eldest son to the current Monarch. Several posters said that.
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  #1991  
Old 03-20-2013, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
As explained before yes. You have to be heir apparent and eldest son to the current Monarch. Several posters said that.
But only Artemisia proved it
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  #1992  
Old 03-20-2013, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Spheno View Post
But only Artemisia proved this
Actually I did earlier in another post 1926;

Quote:
For instance if Charles dies, William will not be Duke of Cornwall despite being the heir, he is not the eldest son of the reigning Monarch.
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  #1993  
Old 03-20-2013, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Spheno View Post
I see a problem here:

The eldest living son of the monarch was/is the heir apparent. Always.
So, does the duchy law have the first criteria? Or, is this only have in mind?

The LPs that created the Duchy in the middle ages does have both these criteria specified.

That is why to change who could hold the title, and who would be able to have the income from the Duchy, would take an Act of Parliament.
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  #1994  
Old 03-20-2013, 06:18 PM
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Lumutqueen; Wiki points out that they debated making her Princess of Wales in her own right. I'm suggesting that the female heir apparent be Prince of Wales, much like the female monarch is Duke of Lancaster.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Spheno View Post
But only Artemisia proved it
Actually, no. A few of us provided examples (I specifically provided the example of George II and his grandson and heir apparent George III). You simply chose to ignore us until Artemisia proved it for you.
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  #1995  
Old 03-20-2013, 06:28 PM
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Roslyn: Wow - that letter is just WOW!

What an opportunity to asses one's writing style, grasp of reality and political deftness. This is a treasure....

"remove misunderstanding and heartburning hereafter" or maybe, not!
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  #1996  
Old 03-20-2013, 06:51 PM
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There have been 22 Princes of Wales and 23 Dukes of Cornwall. 19 have held both titles. I have the full lists in a comparison table and would be prepared to type it in here but not until the weekend when I have the time if there is sufficient interest.
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  #1997  
Old 03-20-2013, 07:22 PM
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Iluvbertie - yes please - we would love to see the list!
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  #1998  
Old 03-20-2013, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
Actually, no. A few of us provided examples (I specifically provided the example of George II and his grandson and heir apparent George III). You simply chose to ignore us until Artemisia proved it for you.
Thank you for answer also.
I asked about a son, you wrote about a grandson, Artemisia answered about a son. That's all.
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  #1999  
Old 03-20-2013, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spheno View Post
Thank you for answer also.
I asked about a son, you wrote about a grandson, Artemisia answered about a son. That's all.
Except you said, and I quote, "the eldest living son of the monarch, if he exists, IS always the heir apparent..."

The example that I provided was actually essentially identical to the one Artemisia provided, with the difference that my example happened and Artemisia's was a hypothetical.

George II had 2 sons who survived into adulthood. Following the death of his elder son, his son's son became his heir. His remaining son (thenceforth his eldest living son) was not the heir apparent. Just the same as if Charles died before HM, making Andrew the eldest living son but William the heir apparent.
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  #2000  
Old 03-20-2013, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Spheno View Post
But only Artemisia proved it
I also proved that your theory was wrong when I wrote this:

"If the eldest son renounce his succession rights, or marry a Catholic? He'll cease to be the heir.

The two criterias are only there to cover all the possible scenarios."

And, of course, the eldest son can die leaving a grandson (the George III and Prince William's examples), meaning that the Sovereign's eldest surviving son isn't also the heir to the Throne.
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