Questions about British Styles and Titles

[RoyalProtocol]

A new Press release about new titles/patronages for the Royal Family

Buckingham Palace press releases

APPOINTMENT OF NEW ROYAL NAVY PATRONS
8 August 2006

THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT IS ISSUED BY THE PRESS SECRETARY TO THE QUEEN

The Queen has been pleased to appoint new Royal Patrons of various Royal Navy Commands in recognition of the strong links between the Royal Navy and the Royal family.
The Prince of Wales
Commodore-in-Chief, Plymouth
Prince William
Commodore-in-Chief, Scotland
Commodore-in-Chief, Submarines
Prince Harry
Commodore-in-Chief, Small Ships and Diving
The Duchess of Cornwall
Commodore-in-Chief, Naval Medical Services
The Duke of York
Commodore-in-Chief, Fleet Air Arm
The Earl of Wessex
Commodore-in-Chief, Royal Fleet Auxiliary
The Princess Royal
Commodore-in-Chief, Portsmouth
Prince Michael of Kent
Commodore-in-Chief, Maritime Reserves

[BeatrixFan]

Yes!! At last, Camilla's a C-in-C.

[kimebear]

Is this the first time that William and Harry are serving as patrons? Or just the first military ones?

[BeatrixFan]

These are indeed their first honorary military appointments.

[Frothy]

The earlier post about Majesty was not correct. Henry VIII was the first monarch to use it.

[sirhon11234]

I wanted too know if princess beatrice or her sister married what would their husbands titles be.

[BeatrixFan]

Well, unless their husbands were offered peerages, nothing. They remain Mr and Beatrice and Eugenie become Mrs whatever after their Princess title. For example, Angus Ogilvy got nothing when he married Princess Alexandra so she became;

HRH Princess Alexandra of Kent, The Hon Mrs Ogilvy.

If Beatrice married Mr Holmes, she'd become;

HRH Princess Beatrice of York, Mrs Holmes

[Next Star]

That is true in some european countries the title of duke does outrank the title of prince. And also The title of Princess Royal is a title of honor it is not a hereditary title you only recieve the title upon the monarch creating the title for you.

[BeatrixFan]

Well, in Britain, the Dukedom doesn't outrank the Prince/Princess title, it gets an equal precedence and the Royal Family take their precedence based on their Prince/Princess rather than their Duke/Duchess Earl/Countess etc.

[Warren]

I have removed quite a few posts regarding European/German titles.
Could we please confine the discussion to British titles.
While other titles may be interesting, they aren't relevant to the British Royal Family.

thanks,
Warren
British Forums moderator

[Next Star]

I know that in Britain the title of Duke does not outrank the title of Prince. The meaning of prince means first while the meaning of duke means leader.

[Empress]

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan

Well, in Britain, the Dukedom doesn't outrank the Prince/Princess title, it gets an equal precedence and the Royal Family take their precedence based on their Prince/Princess rather than their Duke/Duchess Earl/Countess etc.

Well, I think (and Warren would probably know better than I) that a Royal Duke outranks a Prince.. I.e The Duke of York outranks Prince Michael of Kent.

Thus, there is a definite distinction between a royal duke and a non royal duke.

[Warren]

Originally Posted by Empress

Well, I think (and Warren would probably know better than I) that a Royal Duke outranks a Prince.. I.e The Duke of York outranks Prince Michael of Kent.

Thus, there is a definite distinction between a royal duke and a non royal duke.

What we are really talking about here is precedence. Official Precedence in England and Scotland is "laid down" by law and precedent and for the Royal Family it is pretty straightforward: The Sovereign, the Duke of Edinburgh, the Prince of Wales (and spouse), etc. So the title as such is not really relevant. For example, the Earl of Wessex has higher 'ranking' than the Duke of Gloucester because Edward is the son of a Sovereign; both are Royal Highnesses, and normally a Duke outranks an Earl, but in this case the title is not the determinant. Similarly, before his marriage Edward was plain Prince Edward, but still outranked the Duke of Gloucester because of his proximity to the Sovereign.

In the Official Precedence non-Royal Dukes (as the Earl of Ulster will be when he inherits the Duke of Gloucester title from his father) are down the list behind the Archbishops of Canterbury and York, the PM and various politicians, High Commissioners and Ambassadors and the Great Officers of State.

The problem is that we are starting to mix up the different subjects of Royal titles and precedence. While precedence is usually determined by title (from office or birth), as ever the immediate Royal Family is different, being at the top of the pyramid.

For those interested in the more arcane detail, we have the Order of Precedence thread, all 18 pages of it.

[Empress]

Thanks Warren! I knew you could solve it!

[Akela]

The following question popped in my head last week and I wasn't able to finde the answer online, so but I have a feeling, that someone here has the answer.

The second son on the british king / queen has the title "Duke of York", currently it's Andrew. So, when will Harry become "Duke of York"? When his father becomes king? When Andrews dies? If before - what happens to Andrew and his daughters?

Thanks for the answer,
Akela

[branchg]

Once you are granted a royal dukedom, it remains in your family line and continues to pass down through the eldest son. Since Andrew has no sons, the dukedom of York will return to the Crown after his death. It is possible, however, for a royal warrant to be issued allowing Beatrice to inherit the dukedom in her own right.

Harry is likely to marry before Andrew dies and will be granted another dukedom (Cambridge or Sussex) by The Queen or his father.

[SweetHomeNC]

Would they have stayed Princes of Wales or would they become The Prince William or The Prince Harry? If they lost the Wales title, would William go by the Duke of Cornwall title and Harry be given some other dukedom?

[SweetHomeNC]

I'm even more confused now, because I read that William would not get the Duke of Cornwall title if Charles died before the Queen. I thought it was the Prince of Wales title that he wouldn't get, unless the Queen gave him the title, but the Duchy of Cornwall title automatically went to the heir.

[BeatrixFan]

William and Harry will always be Prince William of Wales and Prince Harry of Wales because that was their birth title. They're not "The Prince William" or "The Prince Harry" and won't be until their father is King. If Charles died before being King, they would never be The Prince William/Harry. If Charles died before becoming King, Prince William would become Duke of Cornwall, Rothesay etc etc but NOT the Prince of Wales. He would have to be invested as Prince of Wales. As I understand it, William would become the Duke of Cornwall as soon as Charles died.

[ysbel]

Hello Warren, I don't think we're talking so much about precedence as we are the difference between styles and titles?

Andrew has a title of Duke of York but he is styled as a Prince of the United Kingdom. The style of Prince of the United Kingdom could be held by a lot of people but the title can only be granted to one and right now its Andrew.

It would make sense that the title would be Andrew's and Edward's distinguishing feature.