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  #1001  
Old 01-08-2013, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
To me the office is holy and divine and HM is style as thus for a reason. Her Most Excellent Majesty Elizabeth The Second by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, Sovereign of the Most Noble Order of the Garter, whom may God preserve and bless with long life, health and honour and all worldly happiness
When I was still a monarchist, this was a part of HM's title that I, being an atheist, chose to ignore.
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  #1002  
Old 01-08-2013, 08:03 PM
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The heart often rules the head. It's pretty easy to see a scenario where a RC marries into the RF, accepting the succession rules but whose feelings on the matter may well change. That royal will be sitting in mass, or attending confession, basically being told that their Anglican child is doomed to eternal damnation. That couldn't be easy to live with.

I'm somewhat shocked at the flippant manner in which some say that it's obvious that the CoE should be disestablished, along with the removal of the monarch's traditional role as supreme governor. To do so would be to basically rip the British constitution, many centuries in the making, to shreds. This would not be a cosmetic change, it would require an overhaul of the entire British state. Such enormous changes are generally something that the British people view with a healthy skepticism.

Last year the Queen herself articulated what the established church has done for the UK:

Quote:
Addressing the gathering, the Queen said the Church of England had "gently and assuredly" created an environment for other faith communities and people of no faith to live freely.
"Woven into the fabric of this country, the Church has helped to build a better society - more and more in active co-operation for the common good with those of other faiths."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17047885

To my mind, the present setup works pretty well in the UK. There is no perfect system of government or constitutional architecture. Any changes to the British constitution need to be considered in a measured and careful manner. In other words, the opposite to what Calamity Clegg has done.
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  #1003  
Old 01-08-2013, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
When I was still a monarchist, this was a part of HM's title that I, being an atheist, chose to ignore.
You're also a republican now. So it shouldn't matter what HM is style as.
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  #1004  
Old 01-08-2013, 08:06 PM
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Here is Nick Clegg's response to PRince Charles - I find (in the written text of the article) his example of James I marriage to Anne of Denmark ineresting, as opposed to Jamess II marriage to MAry of Modena - and we know what happened next!

I'd be interested in views on the comment about Louis XIVth of France.


Nick Clegg dismisses Prince Charles' fears on royal laws - Telegraph#
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  #1005  
Old 01-08-2013, 08:12 PM
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The Queeen is no more queen "By the Grace of God", than anyone is anything in their job. This is just hooey that they guy with the biggest sword, promulgated, so that when he ruled, he was respected and feared. This is how the queen got her job. She was born to the right family. Her ancestors, ruled by might and fear and used God. A monarch in any country could be any religion that exists there and a state church is ridiculous in this day and age. God doesn't hover over any one church, he is there for all, if you believe. The rest is man made nonsense to create an awe of strength and "divine right". All that has become a non-starter in the 21st century.
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  #1006  
Old 01-08-2013, 08:14 PM
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Charles is an Anglican, William is more of an Anglican than his father and William's children will be Anglican. After that the whole institution will worship at the Mosque of England , so really its a moot point.
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  #1007  
Old 01-08-2013, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
You're also a republican now. So it shouldn't matter what HM is style as.
I might be a republican, but the British monarch is still my Head of State, and here her title is: "Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God Queen of Australia and Her other Realms and Territories, Head of the Commonwealth."

I was wrong in saying it was only as a monarchist that I chose to ignore it; I still choose to ignore it. And I am quite sure that there are plenty of fellow atheists and secular humanists, and members of other religions, in the UK and other Realms, and maybe even practising Anglicans, who do not like the connection between Church and State and would favour disestablishment.
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  #1008  
Old 01-08-2013, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
Can someone explain the point of having a sovereign in 2013 if the very reason we have the House of Hanover is to uphold the Reformed Protestant Faith.
Call me old fashioned but when someone takes an oath, they should uphold it.
To many monarchists , the office of sovereign is a holy office and to like minded people we do not follow the latest fashions or whatever hairstyle Catherine is rocking. It is a religious office

To me the office is holy and divine and HM is styled as thus for a reason. Her Most Excellent Majesty Elizabeth The Second by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, Sovereign of the Most Noble Order of the Garter, whom may God preserve and bless with long life, health and honour and all worldly happiness
Somehow I very much doubt that the people who gathered along the Thames to watch the Jubilee boat parade or who gathered in the Mall waiting for HM to appear on the balcony thought they were looking at a Holy personage or a religious figure. They gathered to show their love/respect/admiration for the Queen of the United Kingdom who reigns By The Grace of The People. The monarch exists to be the living, non political, symbol of the nation and its history.
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  #1009  
Old 01-08-2013, 08:27 PM
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^^^^ Your opinion and I respect it but I disagree
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  #1010  
Old 01-08-2013, 08:29 PM
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This thread has become to political for my liking.
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  #1011  
Old 01-08-2013, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
Charles is an Anglican, William is more of an Anglican than his father.....
That's an interesting observation because I always had the feeling that William is far less religious than Prince Charles.

I know there have been photographs of Charles and Camilla attending service when they have been at Sandringham without the Queen. Does anyone know whether either attends Church regularly?
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  #1012  
Old 01-08-2013, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by EIIR View Post
The heart often rules the head. It's pretty easy to see a scenario where a RC marries into the RF, accepting the succession rules but whose feelings on the matter may well change. That royal will be sitting in mass, or attending confession, basically being told that their Anglican child is doomed to eternal damnation. That couldn't be easy to live with.
Huh?

I grew up Catholic as well. Most Catholics don't think this way. It's not 1930.

Really, people are talking about Catholics as if they are some "other" The Succession Act is glaringly bigoted. It does not prevent a member of the BRF from marrying any non-Christian. Theoretically Will could have married a Jew, a Hindu or a Muslim. Think of their internal conflicts in allowing the child to be raised Anglican.

I think any person who marries the heir to the throne and others fairly close in line really get the idea that the kids will have to be raised Anglican.
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  #1013  
Old 01-08-2013, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by VictoriaB View Post
That's an interesting observation because I always had the feeling that William is far less religious than Prince Charles.

I know there have been photographs of Charles and Camilla attending service when they have been at Sandringham without the Queen. Does anyone know whether either attends Church regularly?
Catherine has been photographed many times wearing a cross. I think the couple take their Anglican faith very seriously.
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  #1014  
Old 01-08-2013, 08:43 PM
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Huh?

I grew up Catholic as well. Most Catholics don't think this way. It's not 1930.
Gracie - we don't fear, and we are not talking about what an individual Catholic might THINK or do - but are talking about the RC Church's response. Much of that policy remains much in the past. They tend to be fairly rigid on the issue of offspring, faith, and doctrine in that regard. I've known too many people denied the sacraments to be sanguine about the RCC being open minded on this issue.
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  #1015  
Old 01-08-2013, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
Catherine has been photographed many times wearing a cross.
So has Madonna. You can pick them up at any dept store jewellery counter.
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  #1016  
Old 01-08-2013, 08:55 PM
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So has Madonna. You can pick them up at any dept store jewellery counter.
But if the entire country is moving away from religion and particularly the Church of England, what mileage and what political points does Catherine score for wearing a cross. I personally believe she is a religious person and you obviously don't
Agree to disagree.
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  #1017  
Old 01-08-2013, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
Charles is an Anglican, William is more of an Anglican than his father and William's children will be Anglican. After that the whole institution will worship at the Mosque of England , so really its a moot point.
I actually question whether or not William is actually a Christian - don't know why but get the sense he goes through the motions with no real faith whereas Charles has a real Christian faith.

We know that Charles and Camilla attend church regularly as there are reports of them going to church at Tetbury (near Highgrove), in Scotland, at Sandringham - and from being told personally by one of the ministers at the Queen's Chapel at St James Charles and Camilla are also regular attenders at services in London. She did say, on the other hand, that she had never seen either William or Harry at church except for the big occasions.
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  #1018  
Old 01-08-2013, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
So has Madonna. You can pick them up at any dept store jewellery counter.
Point taken, but Madonna is a provocateur and an actor. Kate is not. If she's wearing a cross around her neck during royal duties, I can only conclude she is religious. She comes across to me very much as a what you see what you get kind of person, and as Duke of Earl said, in Britain, she will score no brownie points for wearing that cross.

While I say this I really have no skin in the game on the separation of church and state in Britain. I don't really care whether or not she's religious but it seems to me she must be. But I think that the schism, if and when it occurs, will have some ramifications that can't be dismissed, no matter what side of the coin you are on.
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  #1019  
Old 01-08-2013, 09:06 PM
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But if the entire country is moving away from religion and particularly the Church of England, what mileage and what political points does Catherine score for wearing a cross.
Maybe none at all. Wearing a cross seems to be a trendy thing for young people these days. It might vary from diocese to diocese, but in my family, wearing a cross was seen as a Catholic thing to do, not something Anglicans did.
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Old 01-08-2013, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
Can someone explain the point of having a sovereign in 2013 if the very reason we have the House of Hanover is to uphold the Reformed Protestant Faith.
Call me old fashioned but when someone takes an oath, they should uphold it.
To many monarchists , the office of sovereign is a holy office and to like minded people we do not follow the latest fashions or whatever hairstyle Catherine is rocking. It is a religious office.
From where I sit, QEII is very much the epitome of the Defender of the Faith, is a staunch supporter of the CoE and will always uphold the oaths that she has taken to her dying day. I do not see this changing anytime in the near future nor do I think any sovereign that follows HM will do any different. I know there's been blips abounding about Charles and "Defender of Faiths" but I seriously do not see that coming to pass.

This issue pertains not to a monarch but who the monarch marries and the closest in line to the throne. It will never change that the heir apparent and those close to the throne must be of the CoE, but I would think that in these educated times, there would be no real threat to anyone should a spouse be Roman Catholic and the children who are close to the throne themselves are raised in the CoE. Its not like if one of their parents were RC, they were going to forbid black patent leather shoes for princesses or hand over the Crown regalia to the Vatican.

On an aside note, its not as if the CoE and the RCC are poles apart such as Buddhism and Scientology would be. I was raised RC and married a son of a Presbyterian minister. The first time we attended a Presbyterian service with his parents and an Angelican service with his sister, I was totally amazed at how they all were striking similar from the congregational prayers to the hymns.
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