The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Reigning Houses > British Royals

Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #881  
Old 01-03-2013, 09:08 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Posts: 1,178
Quote:
Originally Posted by cepe View Post
in theory it sounds ok, in practice it would be political (probably small "p" political)

We benefit by having a non-political head of state and this is achieved because election/selection other than by birth doesn't come into it.
The hereditary principle is the only way, I agree.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #882  
Old 01-03-2013, 09:11 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Spring Hill, United States
Posts: 2,537
Knock yourselves out trying to figure out who is the most deserving. An idiotic expectation. Monarchy is this, too. But if the eldest is a boy or girl, anf then can inherit, at least there is some equity. As, today, they do nothing, it is of very little import.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #883  
Old 01-03-2013, 10:50 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
As, today, they do nothing, it is of very little import.
Maybe not from an American point of view but we view it differently.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #884  
Old 01-03-2013, 11:02 PM
Roslyn's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tintenbar, Australia
Posts: 2,801
Quote:
Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
As, today, they do nothing, it is of very little import.
They do nothing for us, and we're stuck with one of them for our Head of State. A Head of State whose family actively campaigns against Australia for sporting events, and, I suspect, other, more important, matters like trade agreements.

I've said it before and I'm likely to say it again: I was a monarchist when I joined TRF, but now I'm a republican.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #885  
Old 01-04-2013, 01:16 AM
Noble Consort Ming's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Detroit, United States
Posts: 285
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
As tempting as this might seem, I can't see this as a realistic possibility. The words "King" and "Consort" just don't work together. The meaning of King and Queen is far too entrenched in history and tradition and usage to be changed this way.

.
Although it might not work in Great Britain I just wanted to point out that there have been King Consorts in some European monarchies.
__________________
How can I dislike the Vasas for running my country when their babies are so cute!
Reply With Quote
  #886  
Old 01-04-2013, 01:23 AM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,421

Actually, it could and did work for Britain; Philip of Spain was given the title of King Consort of England following his marriage to Mary I.
Reply With Quote
  #887  
Old 01-04-2013, 02:01 AM
Gentry
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Campbelltown, Australia
Posts: 97
But Phillip of Spain was a king in his own right.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #888  
Old 01-04-2013, 02:11 AM
Roslyn's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tintenbar, Australia
Posts: 2,801
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noble Consort Ming View Post
Although it might not work in Great Britain I just wanted to point out that there have been King Consorts in some European monarchies.
That's interesting. I didn't know that. Was this recently?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
Actually, it could and did work for Britain; Philip of Spain was given the title of King Consort of England following his marriage to Mary I.
Back in 1554, though, and though it might have worked for the time, I don't think many people would like the reign of Bloody Mary to be repeated.

Philip was actually King of Naples at the moment of his marriage to Mary, so a king was marrying a queen. And Queen Mary's Marriage Act provided for a joint reign, in terms which limited Philip's power but nevertheless provided that he was King of England, not merely a consort, and his signature was to be affixed to documents before Mary's, as was deemed proper for husband and wife at the time. I haven't hunted out the original legislation, as I probably couldn't read it anyway, but this covers it: Act for the Marriage of Queen Mary to Philip of Spain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #889  
Old 01-04-2013, 02:13 AM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trillian View Post
But Phillip of Spain was a king in his own right.
Before his marriage to Mary, Philip was created King of Naples and Jerusalem to have equal rank with his future wife (he became King of Spain after his marriage, and King of Portugal after Mary's death). However, the marriage treaties also stipulated Philip was to become King of England and Ireland jure uxoris (by right of wife).

After Philip became King of Spain, his and Mary's joint titles were: "Philip and Mary, by the Grace of God King and Queen of England, Spain, France, Jerusalem, both the Sicilies and Ireland, Defenders of the Faith, Archdukes of Austria, Dukes of Burgundy, Milan and Brabant, Counts of Habsburg, Flanders and Tirol."

There is some debate on whether he was a King Consort or a King Regnant; although according to the marriage treaty he had virtually all rights and powers of a King Regnant (it was actually a treason to deny his royal authority and all official documents were issued under both his and Mary's names), his role was for only the duration of his marriage. As soon as Mary died, Philip ceased to be King of England and Ireland. In short, while Philip was not exactly a Consort-only (consorts have no political role, and he certainly did), he was not a full King Regnant either (unlike, say, William III who was co-regnant Monarch with Mary II).
Reply With Quote
  #890  
Old 01-04-2013, 02:54 AM
Noble Consort Ming's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Detroit, United States
Posts: 285
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
That's interesting. I didn't know that. Was this recently?



Depends what you consider recently. This is the first one that comes to mind for me. I'll have to dig around for others.

The husband of Isabella II of Spain was King Consort.

Francis, Duke of Cádiz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Edited to add:

The case of the husband of Queen Maria II of Portugal is a little different. He received the title of king after the birth of their first child and is numbered as a king but his equal reign ended when she died.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_II_of_Portugal

This was also the case for Maria I of Portugal and her husband(and uncle!) Pedro III who automatically became king when she became queen because they already had a child. His reign ended with his death which came before hers.

The last two are not really examples of king consorts but interesting.
__________________
How can I dislike the Vasas for running my country when their babies are so cute!
Reply With Quote
  #891  
Old 01-04-2013, 03:01 AM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
That's interesting. I didn't know that. Was this recently?
There are in fact quite a few examples of Kings Consort, including recent ones:

- Francis II of France and Lord Darnley
The first and second husbands of Mary, Queen of Scots were both accorded the styles of Kings Consort of Scotland. Francis II was a King Consort from 1558 to 1560, and Darnley was King Consort from 1565 to 1567.

- Philip of Spain
I've discussed his position in a previous post.

- Francis, Duke of Cadiz
Was King Consort to Isabella II of Spain from 1846 to 1868.

- Philip IV of France
Apart from being King of France, he was also King Consort of Navarre as husband of Joan I of Navarre from 1284 to 1305.

- Philip III of Navarre
King Consort of Joan II of Navarre from 1328 to 1343.

- John II of Aragon
King of Aragon, as well as King Consort of Blanche I of Navarre from 1425 to 1479. Admittedly, after his wife's death, he became effectively a King Regnant of Navarre.

- John III of Navarre
King Consort of Queen Catherine of Navarre from 1484 to 1516.

- Antoine de Bourbon
King Consort of Jeanne III of Navarre from 1555 to 1562.

- Ferdinand II of Aragon
King of Aragon as well as King Consort of Isabella I of Castile from 1475 to 1504.

- David Soslan
King Consort of Queen Tamar of Georgia from 1189 to 1207.

- Ghias ad-din
King Consort of Queen Rusudan of Georgia from 1223 to 1226 (when the Queen repudiated the marriage because of his re-conversion to Muslim religion)

- Philip of Antioch
King Consort of Queen Isabella of Armenia from 1222 to 1224.

- Hethum I of Armenia
King Consort of Queen Isabella of Armenia from 1226 to 1230s (he became Isabella's co-regnant monarch in 1230s, after their first child was born).

- Louis of Cyprus
King Consort of Queen Charlotte of Cyprus from 1459 to 1464 (as well as titular King Consort of Jerusalem and Armenia).


There was also the case of Portuguese Queens Regnant and their spouses. According to Portuguese laws, the consort of a Queen Regnant automatically became King when and if an issue was born to them. Generally, it is agreed that those Kings were Kings Consort and not Kings Regnant, although they did have numerals - something usually reserved for reigning Monarchs only. Two examples could be Fernando II of Portugal(consort of Queen Maria II of Portugal from 1837 to 1853) and Peter III of Portugal (consort of Maria I of Portugal from 1777 to 1786). The system was similar to the one used in Navarre where Kings Consort usually (but not always) were accorded numerals as well.

In addition, provisions for an Emperor Consort was made in the Brazilian Constitution of 1823 (Article 120).



Quote:
Back in 1554, though, and though it might have worked for the time, I don't think many people would like the reign of Bloody Mary to be repeated.
I've made a post on that immediately after yours. I'm not saying the scenario is likely, but it is not unprecedented for it happened both in England and Scotland, as well as quite a few other countries. Admittedly, in most cases, that was centuries ago.
Reply With Quote
  #892  
Old 01-04-2013, 04:02 AM
Roslyn's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tintenbar, Australia
Posts: 2,801
This has all been a very interesting history lesson for me. I don't know much about those other monarchies and my knowledge of the British example doesn't extend back much before Queen Victoria. I learn so much thanks to the knowledgeable people here.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #893  
Old 01-04-2013, 07:45 AM
DukeOfAster's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Pembroke, United States
Posts: 180
I think the world of the Late Diana, Princess of Wales but it is long time incoming and Diana's own children seem to llike Camilla so i say Let her be Queen. In the end if it had not been for alot of Tradition making clear that Charles should marry Diana he would have Married Camilla and this whole mess would not have happened. Camilla did not drive the car that killed Diana she was in love with her Husband.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #894  
Old 01-04-2013, 09:07 AM
Nice Nofret's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Zürich, Switzerland
Posts: 414
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
There are in fact quite a few examples of Kings Consort, including recent ones:

- Francis II of France and Lord Darnley
The first and second husbands of Mary, Queen of Scots were both accorded the styles of Kings Consort of Scotland. Francis II was a King Consort from 1558 to 1560, and Darnley was King Consort from 1565 to 1567.

- Philip of Spain
I've discussed his position in a previous post.

- Francis, Duke of Cadiz
Was King Consort to Isabella II of Spain from 1846 to 1868.

- Philip IV of France
Apart from being King of France, he was also King Consort of Navarre as husband of Joan I of Navarre from 1284 to 1305.

- Philip III of Navarre
King Consort of Joan II of Navarre from 1328 to 1343.

- John II of Aragon
King of Aragon, as well as King Consort of Blanche I of Navarre from 1425 to 1479. Admittedly, after his wife's death, he became effectively a King Regnant of Navarre.

- John III of Navarre
King Consort of Queen Catherine of Navarre from 1484 to 1516.

- Antoine de Bourbon
King Consort of Jeanne III of Navarre from 1555 to 1562.

- Ferdinand II of Aragon
King of Aragon as well as King Consort of Isabella I of Castile from 1475 to 1504.

- David Soslan
King Consort of Queen Tamar of Georgia from 1189 to 1207.

- Ghias ad-din
King Consort of Queen Rusudan of Georgia from 1223 to 1226 (when the Queen repudiated the marriage because of his re-conversion to Muslim religion)

- Philip of Antioch
King Consort of Queen Isabella of Armenia from 1222 to 1224.

- Hethum I of Armenia
King Consort of Queen Isabella of Armenia from 1226 to 1230s (he became Isabella's co-regnant monarch in 1230s, after their first child was born).

- Louis of Cyprus
King Consort of Queen Charlotte of Cyprus from 1459 to 1464 (as well as titular King Consort of Jerusalem and Armenia).


There was also the case of Portuguese Queens Regnant and their spouses. According to Portuguese laws, the consort of a Queen Regnant automatically became King when and if an issue was born to them. Generally, it is agreed that those Kings were Kings Consort and not Kings Regnant, although they did have numerals - something usually reserved for reigning Monarchs only. Two examples could be Fernando II of Portugal(consort of Queen Maria II of Portugal from 1837 to 1853) and Peter III of Portugal (consort of Maria I of Portugal from 1777 to 1786). The system was similar to the one used in Navarre where Kings Consort usually (but not always) were accorded numerals as well.

In addition, provisions for an Emperor Consort was made in the Brazilian Constitution of 1823 (Article 120).



I've made a post on that immediately after yours. I'm not saying the scenario is likely, but it is not unprecedented for it happened both in England and Scotland, as well as quite a few other countries. Admittedly, in most cases, that was centuries ago.

This is one of the reasons QEI didn't want to marry; any husband of hers would haver expected to become King Consort and to have a say in reigning her country.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #895  
Old 01-04-2013, 05:53 PM
Roslyn's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tintenbar, Australia
Posts: 2,801


Reading about these older, mainly European, examples of the husbands of Queens being made King Consort make me thankful that we have the more modern precedents of Prince Albert and Prince Philip.

I think it was a good thing that Elizabeth I didn't marry. I'm sure her husband would have expected to have a say, if not outright rule. As it was, a lot of men tried to make her submit to their will. The Elizabethan Age would have had quite a different tone if she had been married.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #896  
Old 01-04-2013, 07:31 PM
padams2359's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: New Orleans, United States
Posts: 388
Slightly off topic. Were provisions made for Princess Elizabeth (Heir Apparent), not being the Princess of Wales or Duchess of Cornwall as far as payout from the Duchy to support before she ascended to the thrown? Or was she supported by George VI?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #897  
Old 01-04-2013, 07:37 PM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,421


Queen Elizabeth was not at any point of her life Heiress Apparent.

When the Duchy of Cornwall is vacant, the income from it goes to the Sovereign. Since Elizabeth was heiress presumptive, and since chances of a son born to the King were extremely low, the Government agreed that part of the Duchy's income should be used to support Princess Elizabeth's household.
Reply With Quote
  #898  
Old 01-04-2013, 07:39 PM
Osipi's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 4,193
Quote:
Originally Posted by padams2359 View Post
Slightly off topic. Were provisions made for Princess Elizabeth (Heir Apparent), not being the Princess of Wales or Duchess of Cornwall as far as payout from the Duchy to support before she ascended to the thrown? Or was she supported by George VI?
And to add to that question... Was Princess Elizabeth ever the heir apparent or was she heir presumptive until she ascended the throne?
__________________
“We live in a world where we have to hide to make love, while violence is practiced in broad daylight.”
~~~ John Lennon ~~~
Reply With Quote
  #899  
Old 01-04-2013, 07:45 PM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
And to add to that question... Was Princess Elizabeth ever the heir apparent or was she heir presumptive until she ascended the throne?
Queen Elizabeth was never Heiress Apparent: she was always Heiress Presumptive.

An Heir(ess) Apparent is someone who cannot be displaced in the line of succession by any event bar his/her own death. However unlikely it was towards the end of his life, there was always a theoretical chance George VI would sire a legitimate son who would then immediately displace his elder sisters in the succession line.
Reply With Quote
  #900  
Old 01-04-2013, 08:28 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Calgary, Canada
Posts: 237
Hi,

Why even have a monarchy if you don't have a King and Queen at least?
Or a Queen, if no King, as is the case today??

Ands in the case of twins, is not Catherine present at the birth to say which came first? Is not William going to be present too?
They are whom I would believe before doctors/palace grey suits....
Their word should stop all conspiracy & theorists!!

Larry
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Succession Issues ladybelline Imperial Family of Japan 921 11-03-2014 02:22 AM
The Act of Settlement 1701 and the Line of Succession Elise,LadyofLancaster British Royals 926 04-15-2014 11:41 PM
Rules of Succession CrownPrinceLorenzo Royalty Past, Present, and Future 95 10-25-2012 01:55 PM




Popular Tags
belgium brussels carl philip charlene chris o'neill crown prince frederik crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria current events engagement fashion genealogy germany grand duke henri hohenzollern infanta sofia jordan king carl xvi gustav king constantine ii king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander letizia luxembourg nobility official visit olympic games ottoman pieter van vollenhoven poland president hollande prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince constantijn prince daniel prince floris prince pieter-christiaan princess aimee princess anita princess ariane princess astrid princess beatrix princess catharina-amalia princess charlene princess mabel princess madeleine princess margriet princess mary queen anne-marie queen fabiola queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen silvia queen sofia royal royal fashion russia sofia hellqvist spain state visit sweden the hague wedding winter olympics 2014



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:37 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]