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  #701  
Old 12-07-2012, 03:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
The ultimate "what if" must be: What if they are siamese twins?
Heaven forbid!

But I think one still comes out first. Depending on where they are conjoined.
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  #702  
Old 12-19-2012, 02:56 PM
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I knew this would happen! Once you start messing with tradition, it's impossible to stop.

My daughter is the victim of a flawed system - Telegraph
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  #703  
Old 12-19-2012, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Mirabel View Post
I knew this would happen! Once you start messing with tradition, it's impossible to stop.

My daughter is the victim of a flawed system - Telegraph

Of course. There won't be an estate left in Britain after the lefties go through with their agenda
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  #704  
Old 12-19-2012, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Mirabel View Post
I knew this would happen! Once you start messing with tradition, it's impossible to stop.

My daughter is the victim of a flawed system - Telegraph
How disgustingly hypocritical! As I said in another thread, her poor daughter is what she is and where she is precisely thanks to the flawed system by which female heirs are skipped and which thus enabled her father to inherit the title. But poor rich heiress won't get to be a countess, how unfair!
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  #705  
Old 12-19-2012, 03:39 PM
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I read the article you linked, Mirabel, and your comment, Duke of Earl, that "there won't be an estate left in Britain after the lefties go through with their agenda." I, like the author of the article, am not an extreme feminist. I think her suggestion is good, that at least a woman should inherit a title if there is no male heir. (This has Biblical support in the law set forth by Moses that the five daughters of Zelophehad, without a brother, should inherit their father's estate if they married within their tribe--and I think England still is a Bible-revering country).
The author remarks that Scotland has had this type of inheritance for a long time, i.e., daughter inherits title and land if there is no brother. In fact it goes back to the Middle Ages, when Muriel, Lady of Rothes, inherited her father's castle in Rothes when her father, Peter de Pollock, had no sons. Muriel's daughter Eva, likewise had no sons, and passed the title on to her daughter (nameless in records). Down to the twentieth century, the title Lady of Rothes continued if there was no direct male heir. My cousin (many times removed) Georgiana Maxwell, was the last Lady of Rothes. I am descended from Robert de Pollock, Lady Muriel's uncle, who had at least one son, and thus never created a similar descent for his heirs.
I am not aware that the Pollock family were "lefties." They were Jacobites willing to give all for the ascension of the Stuart family. But of course one might say that Peter Pollock was a leftie because he left his castle to Muriel. I think probably he was not a leftie, being a staunch monarchist, but that WAS a long time ago.
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  #706  
Old 12-19-2012, 03:44 PM
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My reference is to the politics of today, so how about Labour/Lib-Dems instead of lefties?
If the Tory party had a majority, none of this equal-primogeniture debate would be discussed.
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  #707  
Old 12-19-2012, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Mariel View Post
I read the article you linked, Mirabel, and your comment, Duke of Earl, that "there won't be an estate left in Britain after the lefties go through with their agenda." I, like the author of the article, am not an extreme feminist. I think her suggestion is good, that at least a woman should inherit a title if there is no male heir. (This has Biblical support in the law set forth by Moses that the five daughters of Zelophehad, without a brother, should inherit their father's estate if they married within their tribe--and I think England still is a Bible-revering country).
Why? Titles are very rarely created with an intent to prevent their extinction. Sometimes titles just need to go extinct. Imagine Princess Beatrice becoming Duchess of York and thus ending the five centuries long tradition of granting the Dukedom of York to the second son of the sovereign. And what does Bible have to do with this? Are you seriously invoking it? I doubt it gives males and females equal inheritance rights, yet nobody mentions Bible when discussing abolishing male-preferance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mariel View Post
The author remarks that Scotland has had this type of inheritance for a long time, i.e., daughter inherits title and land if there is no brother. In fact it goes back to the Middle Ages, when Muriel, Lady of Rothes, inherited her father's castle in Rothes when her father, Peter de Pollock, had no sons. Muriel's daughter Eva, likewise had no sons, and passed the title on to her daughter (nameless in records). Down to the twentieth century, the title Lady of Rothes continued if there was no direct male heir. My cousin (many times removed) Georgiana Maxwell, was the last Lady of Rothes. I am descended from Robert de Pollock, Lady Muriel's uncle, who had at least one son, and thus never created a similar descent for his heirs
I have no idea which Rothes title you're referring to. There is an earldom of Rothes which was never held by a Georgiana Maxwell. There is a barony de Ross which was held by Georgiana Maxwell. Neither title is extinct so "Georgiana Maxwell" cannot have been last holder of either title.
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  #708  
Old 12-19-2012, 03:50 PM
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Why? Titles are very rarely created with an intent to prevent their extinction. Sometimes title just need to go extinct. Imagine Princess Beatrice becoming Duchess of York and thus ending the five centuries long tradition of granting the Dukedom of York to the second son of the sovereign.

I personally am in total agreement with you. I just mean this entire 'debate' in government regarding equal-primogeniture is being driven because of a coalition government.
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  #709  
Old 12-19-2012, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Kotroman View Post
Imagine Princess Beatrice becoming Duchess of York and thus ending the five centuries long tradition of granting the Dukedom of York to the second son of the sovereign.
Had she been a boy it would have ended that "tradition" too.
I wouldn't call it a tradition, rather a series of unexpected events which through two generations have caused the Duke of York to eventually become King. Should we be sad to see the Duchy of Kent or the Duchy of Gloucester be continued through the next generations too?
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  #710  
Old 12-19-2012, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Mariel View Post
I read the article you linked, Mirabel, and your comment, Duke of Earl, that "there won't be an estate left in Britain after the lefties go through with their agenda." I, like the author of the article, am not an extreme feminist. I think her suggestion is good, that at least a woman should inherit a title if there is no male heir.

But it will never stop there; what happens if there is a male heir but he isn't the eldest child? Or the other children decide they want their cut?

We may think it unfair, but male primogeniture is the reason so many of these large estates have endured throughout the years.
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  #711  
Old 12-19-2012, 05:03 PM
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And in the end what would actually happen is that a govt. will decide to abolish titles altogether. Read the comments section and you get an idea of what many people think about the idea of titles.
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  #712  
Old 12-19-2012, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Archduchess Zelia View Post
Had she been a boy it would have ended that "tradition" too.
I wouldn't call it a tradition, rather a series of unexpected events which through two generations have caused the Duke of York to eventually become King. Should we be sad to see the Duchy of Kent or the Duchy of Gloucester be continued through the next generations too?
But she is not a boy and it's not just two generations. There have been seven dukes of York and three dukes of York and Albany since the Wars of the Roses. None of them passed the title.

The Queen could have given Andrew the title with remainder to his daughters, but she didn't. Nothing prevented her from making the title hereditary by and through females. Yet she chose to limit it to heirs male, as usual. Is she sexist? Did she dislike her granddaughters before they were born? Or is it possible that she is wiser than us and that she had a reason to do so?
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  #713  
Old 12-19-2012, 08:27 PM
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And in the end what would actually happen is that a govt. will decide to abolish titles altogether. Read the comments section and you get an idea of what many people think about the idea of titles.
Exactly!

And it wouldn't surprise me if the Monarchy soon follows.
(People are already talking about ending monarchies in Spain and Sweden.)
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  #714  
Old 12-19-2012, 11:19 PM
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Kotroman, you know more about Georgiana Maxwell than I do, I expect. I'm rather new to this digging into the past. When I read a news story that Georgiana Maxwell was the Lady of Rothes (some time in the 1990's) I thought she must be a distant cousin of mine, because my Scottish family of Pollock is considered to be "one family" with the Maxwell family, and have a near-identical tartan. I know that my distant uncle Peter Pollock left the castle of Rothes to his daughter, but Georgiana Maxwell, as you say, must not be of that Rothes line, but instead of Ross.
One reason why Pollock and Maxwell are considered to be one family is because of their interbreeding habits, needless to say. Maxwell was especially wretched in the inbred hobby, much worse than Pollock. I researched that particular part of the problem, the Maxwell inbreeding with cousins to retain estates. In more than one generation a Maxwell married a cousin Maxwell to preserve the estate, then divorced the wife on the grounds of "consanguinity", which was against church law. Then the ruthless Maxwell spouse would marry whomever else he chose, and of course had custody of the heir or heirs. Ugly ugly business. I would love to see relics of such barbarity end. But my Pollock ancestors were not as ruthless and hence lost their power and lands. Good for them! (I am only l/4 Scottish and only found this history in recent years when looking at genealogy threads).

I bought my son and grandsons Pollock tartan ties for Christmas. May seem absurd to them, but it's time for them to get introduced to that part of their history.
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  #715  
Old 12-29-2012, 09:25 PM
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Equality law means Duchess of Cambridge may never be our Queen | UK | Express.co.uk - Home of the Daily and Sunday Express
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The Duchess of Cambridge may never become William’s Queen if an MP’s attempt to eradicate one of the last vestiges of sexism in the British constitution is successful.
Welcome to the insanity that is modern day, hyper-politically correct Britain
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  #716  
Old 12-29-2012, 09:37 PM
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Good grief! Man's mad! Happily I shall be long gone by the time this could happen.
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  #717  
Old 12-29-2012, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
Why is it insane? More and more women nowadays choose to be known by their maiden names, especially professionally. I see nothing wrong with abolishing the idea that a woman's identity is subsumed into her husband's on marriage. To me, that is the insanity.
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  #718  
Old 12-29-2012, 10:48 PM
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Why is it insane? More and more women nowadays choose to be known by their maiden names, especially professionally. I see nothing wrong with abolishing the idea that a woman's identity is subsumed into her husband's on marriage. To me, that is the insanity.
Because it would be inconsistent. It's unlikely to pass anyway.

They talk about The Prince of Wales meddling, but I wish parliment would stop meddling with the monarchy!
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  #719  
Old 12-29-2012, 11:29 PM
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Because it would be inconsistent. It's unlikely to pass anyway.

They talk about The Prince of Wales meddling, but I wish parliment would stop meddling with the monarchy!
Inconsistent with what? With the past? It's inconsistent that when Sophie, Diana, Camilla etc married they became Countess, Princess and Duchess while Mark, Tim and Tony Armstrong-Jones did not.

As for Parliament meddling in the monarchy do you think male primogeniture is right? That those who marry Catholics should be barred from the throne (but not those who marry Jews, Muslims, Hindus etc)? That sleeping with the wife of the Prince of Wales should be punishable by death (I know it no longer is but only since Parliament recently "meddled")?
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  #720  
Old 12-30-2012, 01:40 AM
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That sleeping with the wife of the Prince of Wales should be punishable by death (I know it no longer is but only since Parliament recently "meddled")?
oh what a shame, parliament meddled with that particular law - It would have been a field day, if that law had been applied to Dianas lovers

We wouldn't have had to read all this Hewitt-Stories in the years past.
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