Proposal for Equal Primogeniture Succession

[Iluvbertie]

Originally Posted by Sherlock221B

Fascinating...an heir apparent, and I mean this in theory only, would be able to wed who ever he chooses, but a heiress apparent would be restricted to only "certain" individuals. Theoretically of course...

Do you think that if Prince William had wanted to marry Crown Princess Victoria that would have been allowed? I doubt it as one of them would have to renounce their rights - no difference to the situation if Vicky had always been the heir instead of for only about one year.

[Sherlock221B]

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie

Do you think that if Prince William had wanted to marry Crown Princess Victoria that would have been allowed? I doubt it as one of them would have to renounce their rights - no difference to the situation if Vicky had always been the heir instead of for only about one year.

I agree, in theory, it would be highly unlikely for Prince William and Crown Princess Victoria to marry one another, she would have more likely married his cousin Peter. William most likely Victoria's sister Princess Madeleine. Sticking with the British-Swedish match making method. Nevertheless, neither William nor Victoria would be required to have their eligibility to inherit the thrones of their respective countries rescinded...that wouldn't be necessary unless it was deemed so as a result of their marriage, which most likely would occur.

Hence, in theory, the introduction of equal primogeniture, would unfairly place "spousal restrictions" on a heiress, such as Crown Princess Victoria, due to the heiress' status as the eldest daughter and eldest child, whilst none would be placed on a heir that is the eldest son and eldest child, such as Prince William. The heir's eligibility would not be questioned under equal primogeniture or male primogeniture no matter who he married.

[NGalitzine]

I am unclear why you think equal primogeniture would place more restrictions on a female heiress as opposed to a male heir. Why would a female heir's eligibility be questioned with equal primogeniture?
Its doubtful in this day and age that any 2 independent nations would want to be linked by shared monarchs, but I supposed William could have decided he preferred the role of Prince Consort of Sweden to reigning King in the UK, just as easily as Victoria giving up Sweden to being consort in the UK.

[Sherlock221B]

I don't recall mentioning that under equal primogeniture a heiress apparent's eligibility to a throne could be questioned. Just so happens that I agree with you that in this era it is highly unlikely for two nations to be linked by shared monarchs or even seek to do so.

[Thena]

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie

Of course Vicky would never have been allowed to marry the Crown Prince of Prussia if she had been heiress apparent to the British throne.

Originally Posted by Sherlock221B

Fascinating...an heir apparent, and I mean this in theory only, would be able to wed who ever he chooses, but a heiress apparent would be restricted to only "certain" individuals. Theoretically of course...

I recall reading somewhere (probably in "Victoria's Daughters") that Prince Albert raised the girls with the specific goal of sending them to marry princes on the continent so they could spread his ideals. He accomplished that with Vicky and Alice, but wasn't there to manage the marital prospects of Helena, Louise and Beatrice.

The fact was that boys superseded at the time, so the older girls matured in an environment where they were expected to marry foreign princes and leave the country of their birth. After Albert's death, Victoria insisted on having her younger daughters remain in Britain to support her. If Vicky had known from birth that she would stay in Britain to become queen, she probably would have married a second son who would have relocated. But we can only guess what might have happened if the law had been different then.

[PrincessKaimi]

So much would have changed had this happened sooner, it's fascinating to think about. Such different expectations of girls - and now, finally (but of a sudden), a very different system. It'll be very interesting to see what happens if the Cambridges have a girl first (I surely hope they do!)

[mackdread]

I have a question about the new rules that are intended to treat men and women equally when it comes to the Royal succession. Does Anne, the Princess Royal now move up from being only tenth in line for the Crown, ahead of Andrew and Edward and their lines?

[HRHHermione]

Originally Posted by mackdread

I have a question about the new rules that are intended to treat men and women equally when it comes to the Royal succession. Does Anne, the Princess Royal now move up from being only tenth in line for the Crown, ahead of Andrew and Edward and their lines?

No- it's not retroactive. It only applies to babies born in the royal family from now on.

[DukeOfAster]

My understanding the new rules apply to the decendents of the Prince of Wales not the current royals so the Duke of Cambridge and Prine Harry children will be the first to be affected. The official laws that have been on place will have to be updated for it to become official as well. I believe that the UK will start the law changes followed by New Zealand.

[Royal_Eagle]

Originally Posted by HRHHermione

No- it's not retroactive. It only applies to babies born in the royal family from now on.

That's what I've heard too. What I'd like to know is how would they handle IF for some unforesseable reason, all of the descendants of the PoW pass away and the Throne goes to a descendant of Prince Andrew or any of the other siblings of PoW? Would the old rules only apply to them?

Going to be interesting to see how they deal with that, if ever.

[Warren]

Equal primogeniture will apply if and when the legislation becomes law. Assuming that occurs in the near-term, the Line of Succession following your scenario of the Wales line becoming extinct is quite straightforward...

Beatrice follows the Duke of York; her issue, if born after the introduction of equal primogeniture, will be placed in order of birth regardless of sex.

If her line fails, succession falls to Eugenie. Again, any children born to her are most likely to be in the Line of Succession according to their date of birth.

Following the York princesses comes the Wessexes. Viscount Severn, although younger, will continue to precede Lady Louise because he was born under the existing law. Any children of his would be subject to the revised law of equal primogeniture.

[Royal_Eagle]

OH, I see my mistake. I misread HRHermione's posting to mean it apply only to PoW's children. Earlier, there was some talk that it would apply only to PoW's descendants--hence my too hasty reading of her posting.

Of course, if it apply to all royal babies after a date, then my question is moot as it will never be a problem.

Thanks for clearing and reminding me to read more carefully next time!
.

[AnnEliza]

Originally Posted by DukeOfAster

But with the new laws that allow the Monarch to be the first born will that not change that.So if that is a woman will she not out rank the men so then the King title out ranking the Queen will be gone to correct.

I have a (no doubt dumb) question about the new laws. Do these affect the current heir? In other words, hypothetically let's say something happened to Charles, William, and Harry, and William was still childless. Would Princess Anne then become Queen, since she is the second eldest child of HM?

[Zonk]

There are no dumb questions :)

The new law will not be retroactive.

So if William dies childless the rest of the sucession remains the same: Harry, Andrew, Beatrice,Eugenie, Edward, James, Louise and than Anne, Peter and than Zara.

THe new law would affect the next generation....if William has a daughter and than a son with the current law the son would replace the daughter as soon as he is born, with the new law that is no longer the case. And this isn't just for William but everyone....so if the new law is passed before Peter's second child is born...than Savannah will retain her place in line if she has a brother or a sister whereas in the past, if little Peter/Jonas or whomever is born...he would replace her.

[Iluvbertie]

What will be interesting is if William has a daughter is say two years and then a son in four years but the legislation still hasn't passed all 16 realms, because until it passes in all 16 it won't be in effect.

[AnnEliza]

Originally Posted by Zonk

The new law will not be retroactive.

Thanks for your answer. Does this affect other titles, that is, the nobility, or only the royal family?

[Baroness of Books]

I understand that due to the complexities of the peer system, there will be no changes in that area.

[yvr girl]

The legislation has not been written yet, so we do not know specifics. My understanding is the plan is to have it effect new heirs only. My guess is they will do something like Norway. Everyone born in from January 1, 2012 onwards will fall into the new rule.

[Daria_S]

And so it begins.

Hark what discord follows when you meddle with the monarchy - Telegraph

[TheManWhoSpoke]

I must say that the news of Primogeniture Succession strikes me as cold and unwanted, not that Australians are too concerned with such details about the monarchy. But when it comes to Primogeniture Succession, I do take issue.

The problem is essentially that whilst HM is a capable and competent head of state, and also a very fine Queen by all standards. HM can lead us in all ways bar one - she cannot lead by example, because she is not a King. It is my opinion that being soverign bears with it some exemplary responsibility, as we not only require a head of state; we also require both King and Queen. For this reason, I believe the realm should have a king AND queen - whenever possible. Primogeniture Sucession will ensure, that the realm will have no king at all - whilst a female heir is in power, even though there is a male candidate able to fill the role.

We are currently a kingdom without a king, the experience is almost entierly absent from living memory. It is a loss that recent events have provoked me to feel keenly aware of. It is as though that portion or the realm that is male are leaderless, on some spiritual level... Futhermore, the disclosure that we would enter into this arrangement by choice underlines the message of this age - that a man is nice to have, but an unnecessary extra. He is an expendable item.

If the monarchy were not already irrelevant - I fear that this move to Primogeniture Succession will ensure that it may soon be so.