The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Reigning Houses > British Royals

Join The Royal Forums Today
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #201  
Old 04-19-2011, 08:26 AM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 9,373
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duchess of Darwin View Post
Very true. I doubt Beatrice will be stripped of her HRH, given she received her Coat of Arms, and Standard at the same age some people thought she would become Lady Beatrice Windsor.

As for her inheritence of the Dukedom of York, the loophole that she was born before the reforms, could be used (which would make my blood boil. Who would be forced to step aside for her? ) but there is no reason why she couldn't inherit York, provided Harry doesn't become an Earl, in order to receive it (something I really don't want to happen, much as I adore him*) Can anyone tell me why she can't anyway?

I have heard about the historical example of Princess Alexandra, Duchess of Fife. She was The Duchess of Fife in her own right, and her Son was able to receive the courtesy title of The Earl of Macduff. He predeceased her, but the Dukedom was able to go to her Famale line Nephew (the current Duke of Fife) when she herself died.

Am I unaware of a big change that happened? (this was post 1917) If so it would be great if the constitution could be ammended to allow Female inheritence again.

*No, not in that way

The situation with Fife was that the King issued new LPs to allow for the female line to inherit when it was clear there were going to be no sons.

I highly doubt that there will be any intention of giving Harry an Earldom in anticipation of York for a number of reasons

1 - Andrew is only 51 and could easily live another 30 or more years meaning Harry has to wait that long
2 - by the time Andrew dies it is more than likely that William will be King and could have two sons of his own and want York for his second son.
3 - Andrew could, at any time, remarry and have a son and that would immediately mean Harry misses out on a Dukedom

The difference with Edward was that he is in the line of inheritance to the Edinburgh title (and could theoretically actually inherit it directly from his father although unlikely - it would take Charles, William, Harry and Andrew to all predecease Philip with no additional male heirs. That would have Beatrice becoming Queen (or a daughter of William's) and Edinburgh passing to Edward. In addtion in 1999 Philip was already 78 and so the expection was that he would pass on sooner rather than later - not saying they expected him to die before he reached 90 or anything like that but certainly not in 30 - 40 years time which is what would be the expectation for Andrew's life at this point in time (making Harry well into his 60s).
__________________

  #202  
Old 04-19-2011, 11:41 AM
Esmerelda's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,215
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...=feeds-newsxml
__________________

  #203  
Old 04-19-2011, 08:38 PM
Duchess of Darwin's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
The situation with Fife was that the King issued new LPs to allow for the female line to inherit when it was clear there were going to be no sons.
Why don't these LPs now apply to the York title? Were they replaced?
I'm not attacking you, I'm just confused Is it to do with the fact that Andrew could remarry and produce a Son, while Alexandra's Father died without any? Regardless of why Beatrice can not currently inherit the Dukedom, she should be allowed to. Why should it be better vacant than hers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvebertie View Post
I highly doubt that there will be any intention of giving Harry an Earldom in anticipation of York for a number of reasons

1 - Andrew is only 51 and could easily live another 30 or more years meaning Harry has to wait that long
2 - by the time Andrew dies it is more than likely that William will be King and could have two sons of his own and want York for his second son.
3 - Andrew could, at any time, remarry and have a son and that would immediately mean Harry misses out on a Dukedom

The difference with Edward was that he is in the line of inheritance to the Edinburgh title (and could theoretically actually inherit it directly from his father although unlikely - it would take Charles, William, Harry and Andrew to all predecease Philip with no additional male heirs. That would have Beatrice becoming Queen (or a daughter of William's) and Edinburgh passing to Edward. In addtion in 1999 Philip was already 78 and so the expection was that he would pass on sooner rather than later - not saying they expected him to die before he reached 90 or anything like that but certainly not in 30 - 40 years time which is what would be the expectation for Andrew's life at this point in time (making Harry well into his 60s).
This is why I don't think Harry will aquire the Dukedom of York He is likely to be The King's Brother, by the time it becomes available, hence, he wouldn't be eligable to be granted it. This doesn't stop Wikipedia from saying that the Earl situation will "most likely" happen, though
  #204  
Old 04-19-2011, 10:32 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Alexandria, United States
Posts: 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duchess of Darwin View Post
Why don't these LPs now apply to the York title? Were they replaced?
I'm not attacking you, I'm just confused Is it to do with the fact that Andrew could remarry and produce a Son, while Alexandra's Father died without any? Regardless of why Beatrice can not currently inherit the Dukedom, she should be allowed to. Why should it be better vacant than hers?



This is why I don't think Harry will aquire the Dukedom of York He is likely to be The King's Brother, by the time it becomes available, hence, he wouldn't be eligable to be granted it. This doesn't stop Wikipedia from saying that the Earl situation will "most likely" happen, though
Beatrice can't inherit the Dukedom because the LP creating the Dukedom of York specified that the Dukedom be passed down to the male-line heir. A new LP would have to be created in order for Beatrice to get the Dukedom, and even so, it may not be possible as long as the current Duke of York is alive. There was another thread on this forum about this kind of situation.

As for Prince Harry, I'm sure he know he's not going to get the Dukedom of York ever, but I'm sure he doesn't care that much. Besides the Dukedom of York is NOT restricted to the 2nd son of the Monarch, just been traditionally given to the 2nd son--there's no restriction on who the Dukedom can be granted to. Of course once the present Duke of York pass away and the Dukedom goes extinct and revert to the Crown, then King Charles/George or William can recreate it for Harry if he want it that badly and the King is fine with that.

I have the feeling that once Prince Harry marry, he'll get a Dukedom as the son and brother of 2 future Monarches and that'll be it. Some have talked about Earldom, but I think he's too close to the Throne for that to happen.
  #205  
Old 04-20-2011, 12:03 AM
Duchess of Darwin's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 212
Thanks for givng me the info.

There would be nothing to stop Harry from becoming an Earl, with the expectation of becoming The Duke of York, but it wouldn't be like him to feel that he must be The Duke of York, having been the second Son of The Sovereign.

As for Beatrice inheriting, it won't necessarily happen, but a Letters Patient is much easier to deal with than the Constitution. Am I right in assuming that changing the succesion rules for the Dukedom of York, would not be as hard as abolishing Male primogeniture?
  #206  
Old 04-20-2011, 01:56 AM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 9,373
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duchess of Darwin View Post
Thanks for givng me the info.

There would be nothing to stop Harry from becoming an Earl, with the expectation of becoming The Duke of York, but it wouldn't like him to feel that he must be The Duke of York, having been the second Son of The Sovereign.

As for Beatrice inheriting, it won't necessarily happen, but a Letters Patient is much easier to deal with than the Constitution. Am I right in assuming that changing the succesion rules for the Dukedom of York, would not be as hard as abolishing Male primogeniture?

It would be relatively easy to change the inheritance for the York Dukedom to allow Beatrice to inherit by simply recreating it for Andrew with a new remainder that allowed females to inherit if no sons - couldn't go completely gender neutral as the initial LPs allowed for heirs male of the body and if a second creation was done that allowed for gender neutral inheritance it would be possible in the years ahead for there to be two holders of the title - the one through the eldest child and the one in the male line - assuming Andrew ever married and had a son.

To change the primogeniture issue for titles other than the monarch can be dealt with simply by the British parliament but for the monarch it will require legislation in all countries of which the Queen is Queen and that isn't a given with a couple still having much stronger attitudes to male preference - e.g. Tuvalu. I was talking to a couple of parents of one of my students about this the other day, not realising actually that they came from Tuvalu - and they said they didn't think their government would agree to it as male primogeniture is still the preferred entity within that nation.
  #207  
Old 04-20-2011, 05:40 AM
Duchess of Darwin's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
It would be relatively easy to change the inheritance for the York Dukedom to allow Beatrice to inherit by simply recreating it for Andrew with a new remainder that allowed females to inherit if no sons - couldn't go completely gender neutral as the initial LPs allowed for heirs male of the body and if a second creation was done that allowed for gender neutral inheritance it would be possible in the years ahead for there to be two holders of the title - the one through the eldest child and the one in the male line - assuming Andrew ever married and had a son.

To change the primogeniture issue for titles other than the monarch can be dealt with simply by the British parliament but for the monarch it will require legislation in all countries of which the Queen is Queen and that isn't a given with a couple still having much stronger attitudes to male preference - e.g. Tuvalu. I was talking to a couple of parents of one of my students about this the other day, not realising actually that they came from Tuvalu - and they said they didn't think their government would agree to it as male primogeniture is still the preferred entity within that nation.
Thanks

I knew it that to abolish Male primogeniture, in the line of succession to The Throne, would be very difficult, but I wasn't sure about peerages. I was under the impression that what applied to one peerage, applied to all, hence why the historical Fife example perplexed me.
  #208  
Old 04-20-2011, 06:15 AM
Esmerelda's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,215
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/op...-15144441.html
  #209  
Old 04-20-2011, 06:59 AM
Duchess of Darwin's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 212
Great article!
  #210  
Old 04-20-2011, 03:12 PM
Leslie2006's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Seattle, United States
Posts: 445
They could always change the succession laws to equal primogeniture to only apply to the generation of William and Catherine's children; that way it wouldn't affect what's already in place. It's already been done in Spain, the Netherlands and Norway.
  #211  
Old 04-20-2011, 03:14 PM
Lenora's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Riga, Latvia
Posts: 2,282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie2006 View Post
They could always change the succession laws to equal primogeniture to only apply to the generation of William and Catherine's children; that way it wouldn't affect what's already in place. It's already been done in Spain, the Netherlands and Norway.
I know about Scandinavian monarchies,but I've never heard about Spain adopting the equal primogeniture
  #212  
Old 04-20-2011, 05:24 PM
Roslyn's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tintenbar, Australia
Posts: 3,329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
To change the primogeniture issue for titles other than the monarch can be dealt with simply by the British parliament but for the monarch it will require legislation in all countries of which the Queen is Queen and that isn't a given with a couple still having much stronger attitudes to male preference - e.g. Tuvalu. I was talking to a couple of parents of one of my students about this the other day, not realising actually that they came from Tuvalu - and they said they didn't think their government would agree to it as male primogeniture is still the preferred entity within that nation.
Ah, karma!

I doubt it ever entered the minds of the explorers and colonisers that one day those they attached to the Empire would have such power over Britain.
  #213  
Old 04-20-2011, 05:56 PM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 9,373
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
Ah, karma!

I doubt it ever entered the minds of the explorers and colonisers that one day those they attached to the Empire would have such power over Britain.

Of course I was only stating the opinion of a couple of people and not anything official.

It could also be that Tuvalu decides to become a republic rather than change their preferred practice but from what this couple said the people like having the Queen but simply think that men are better at that sort of thing and would prefer a male at all times over a female.
  #214  
Old 04-23-2011, 02:12 AM
Mia_mae's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: SP, Brazil
Posts: 1,101
I don't know how official this is but

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/...66_634x477.jpg

The majority of British would approve the change.

One question: if one Commonwealth country doesn't agree with the changed, could they use the "the-side-with-more-votes-wins", or no?
__________________
There's not much of a difference between a stadium full of cheering fans and an angry crowd screaming abuse at you. They're both just making a lot of noise. How you take it is up to you. Convince yourself they're cheering for you. You do that, and someday, they will - Sue S.
  #215  
Old 04-23-2011, 04:30 AM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 9,373
No. All of the realms are independent and equal. If one says 'no' then 'no' it is. Each of the realms has to pass its own legislation to make it happen in their nation.
It could result in the one saying 'no' ending up with a different monarch e.g. everyone else could end up with Queen Diana while Tuvalu keeps male primogeniture and ends up with the new King Micheal (I have taken the liberty of naming their children after William's mum and Kate's dad - to be fair to Kate).

NB This matter has nothing to do with The Commonwealth actually as most of the Commonwealth countries are republics or have their own monarchs. There are some Commonwealth countries that have the same Head of State - in the person of the monarch of the UK of GB and NI but since 1932 all of these realms have equal rights to say 'yes' or 'no' to any idea regarding that monarch e.g. if any of them hadn't agreed to Edward VIII's abdication in 1936 he could have remained as King of those realms and not as King of Britain.
  #216  
Old 04-23-2011, 06:58 AM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Las Vegas, United States
Posts: 103
While it is technically possible for the idea of equal primogeniture to be rejected by a realm, I don't think it is in any way probable. Two things are however nearly certain:
(1) the debate about becoming a republic will be re-opened using the laws of succession as a starting point;
(2) the debate about the religious requirement will be re-opened as well, along with minor debates about adopted children and children legitimated by marriage;
(3) their will be a raft of suits petitioning the queen to change the rules governing hereditary peerages.

Given all three of these debates, I still think they would be better off waiting to see if the first born to William and Catherine is a girl. With a real live baby girl, the objections should be minimal.
  #217  
Old 04-23-2011, 07:10 AM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 9,373
1. Debate about becoming a republic in most realms will happen regardless - and in Australia for instance can't be determined by the parliament anyway - it will take a referendum of the Australian people and a majority of that population and a majority of the states would have to vote in favour - NB we have only passed about 8 in the 110 year history of the nation.

2. I haven't heard of any debate about adopted children having rights in Britain nor any debate about children born out of wedlock where the couple then marry - probably because people are fully aware of the fact that if the girl was pregnant they would have a quick wedding to cover that eventuality.

3. They can petition the Queen all they like - but to change the LPs for any title they would be petitioning the wrong entity. They need to ask Parliament to do so and Parliament could deal with that issue very simply by having the legislation state that all inherited titles/positions have to be gender neutral.

As for one realm refusing to agree - it is possible. We were given that right in 1932 and the realms are fully aware that it will take legislation in each realm separately and independently of Britain. The legislation therefore has to met the requirements of each of the different realms and even consider the wording of the constitutions of each of the realms as to whether it can be done simply by Parliament or whether a referendum would be required.
  #218  
Old 04-24-2011, 08:28 AM
Lenora's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Riga, Latvia
Posts: 2,282
Express.co.uk - Home of the Daily and Sunday Express | UK News :: ROYAL WEDDING: LET THEIR DAUGHTER BE QUEEN
  #219  
Old 04-27-2011, 03:02 PM
Leslie2006's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Seattle, United States
Posts: 445
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lenora View Post
I know about Scandinavian monarchies,but I've never heard about Spain adopting the equal primogeniture
They have with the king's grandchildren, I believe. So if Letizia and Felipe were to have a son, he would be fourth in line after his father and two sisters. The male primogeniture only still applies to the king's children.
  #220  
Old 04-27-2011, 03:16 PM
Esmerelda's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie2006

They have with the king's grandchildren, I believe. So if Letizia and Felipe were to have a son, he would be fourth in line after his father and two sisters. The male primogeniture only still applies to the king's children.
No, Spain hasn't changed to equal primogeniture. There was a lot of discussion when Leonor was born but the government seems to want to avoid constitutional complications. I think they will change it if Felipe and Letizia have a son as they took the unusual step of revealing their second daughter's gender before her birth in case it had 'constitutional relevance' or something like that.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_...Spanish_throne

I think, like in the UK, the politicians are hoping the problem never arises, although I believe F and L did want more than 2 children, at least before they were married.
__________________

Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Rules of Succession CrownPrinceLorenzo Royalty Past, Present, and Future 102 07-06-2015 04:44 PM
The Act of Settlement 1701 and the Line of Succession Elise,LadyofLancaster British Royals 942 03-09-2015 10:32 PM
Succession Issues ladybelline Imperial Family of Japan 921 11-03-2014 01:22 AM




Popular Tags
australia belgium best outfit birth camilla chris o'neill crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess catharina-amalia crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria current events death duchess of cambridge duchess of cornwall duke of cambridge fashion fashion poll france funeral germany hereditary grand duchess stéphanie infanta leonor king abdullah of jordan king felipe king felipe vi king harald king philippe king willem-alexander letizia maxima official visit picture of the week president gauck president hollande prince carl philip prince daniel prince frederik prince harry prince of wales princess ariane princess charlene princess madeleine princess mary princess mary daytime fashion princess mette-marit princess victoria queen fabiola queen letizia queen letizia fashion queen letizia style queen mathilde queen maxima queen maxima daytime fashion queen maxima fashion queen maxima style queen rania queen silvia queen sonja royal fashion sayn sofia hellqvist spanish royals state visit sweden the hague united states of america wedding willem-alexander


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002-2012 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:56 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2015
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]