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  #201  
Old 04-17-2011, 10:05 PM
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Yeah she'll be a princess, but she takes the title of her husband, correct? She will still be HRH, but not HRH Princess Beatrice of York, but whatever her husband's title will be. It's like Princess Alexandra. She was HRH Princess Alexandra of Kent, but became HRH Princess Alexandra, The Honourable Mrs. Angus Ogilvy when she married because that was her husband's title.
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  #202  
Old 04-17-2011, 10:24 PM
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From what I know and I could be wrong, the laws usually don't change what is but what will be. For example, Princess Beatrice wouldn't become The Duchess of York, but a future firstborn daughter, say if Harry was hypothetically created The Duke of York, could become The Duchess of York. Although, Beatrice will lose that title upon marriage anyway and her status so it'd be pointless. Plus, it is a little retrospective if you think about it, not really, but kind of.

It is possible for the Queen to issue a new set of LPs recreating the title Duke of York allowing for female descendents to have equal rights with male ones.

It is also possible to change the LPs by an Act of Parliament and if Parliament is to change the primogeniture laws for the monarch then they could also (and frankly should do so in my opinion) change the inheritance remainders to other titles as well.

Beatrice will only lose her title if laws are passed to strip her of the title or the monarch of the day issues new LPs restricting the HRH Prince/Princess title to fewer people than those who qualify today.

She will always be HRH Princess Beatrice, even after her marriage. Princess Margaret, Princess Anne, and Princess Alexandra didn't cease to be Princesses when they married (and Alexandra like Beatrice is a male line granddaughter of a monarch).
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  #203  
Old 04-17-2011, 10:26 PM
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I didn't realize that all 16 commonwealths under the Queen (sorry if I'm using term incorrectly) had to agree to law changes, otherwise one would recognize first born son as heir and another just first born.....interesting

Yes - all of the 16 nations that have the Queen as their Queen will have to enact the same legislation otherwise the situation could arise where one person inherits Britain and another one becomes King of one or more of the other realms.

We share a Head of State but we all have an equal say in decisions like this and Britain simply can't change the laws without our Parliaments also passing those laws.
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  #204  
Old 04-17-2011, 10:33 PM
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I know she won't lose her HRH. I used Princess Alexandra as an example of what her title will be after marriage. I phrased what I was saying wrong. My bad..
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  #205  
Old 04-17-2011, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna Catherine
I know she won't lose her HRH. I used Princess Alexandra as an example of what her title will be after marriage. I phrased what I was saying wrong. My bad..
I get what you are getting at..... she becomes Mrs X but she doesn't lose her Princess style or HRH just the York part....before it just seemed you were saying she'll lose all styles/titles/status.....all clear now
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  #206  
Old 04-18-2011, 02:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Roslyn
The reason I say that the male primogeniture issue can, and should, be severed, is to enable the anachronistic sexism inherent in the present system of inheritance of the monarchy to cease immediately. I believe it is a relatively straightforward issue and can, (and should, IMO), be severed, as, I understand, was the case in Sweden. If that particularly thorny issue is resolved, the rest can be dealt with at leisure.

The issues relating to inheritance of peerages involves consideration of more fundamental issues and the situation is also inextricably linked to property law generally, and it will take time to tease out all the strands and devise a new regime.
It took the Swedes two years to pass it through. They didn't have 16 countries sharing the same head of state or our current economic problems. They only did it after Prince Carl Philip was born, as the Republicans were hoping that King Carl Gustaf wouldn't have a son and refusing to pass the legislation would have meant the end of the monarchy.

I think our politicians will similarly ignore the issue until it becomes a problem and hope that William either has a son first or only daughters.
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  #207  
Old 04-18-2011, 04:36 AM
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David Cameron warns: 'Change to royal succession laws could take years' | Mail Online

David Cameron has warned that it could take years to change a law giving male heirs priority in the Royal line of succession.

'This has been discussed before and everyone in the front line of politics agrees that this does need to change and there are conversations ongoing,' Mr Cameron told the Murnaghan show on Sky News today.

'But it clearly does take some time because the Queen is not just Queen of the United Kingdom, but many other countries around the world and so changes have to be changes that all countries take on board and put in place.'

New Zealand supports changes to Royal succession rules - Telegraph

New Zealand has pledged its support for a change to the rules of Royal succession which would clear the way for a first-born girl to succeed to the throne.
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  #208  
Old 04-19-2011, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
It is possible for the Queen to issue a new set of LPs recreating the title Duke of York allowing for female descendents to have equal rights with male ones.

It is also possible to change the LPs by an Act of Parliament and if Parliament is to change the primogeniture laws for the monarch then they could also (and frankly should do so in my opinion) change the inheritance remainders to other titles as well.

Beatrice will only lose her title if laws are passed to strip her of the title or the monarch of the day issues new LPs restricting the HRH Prince/Princess title to fewer people than those who qualify today.

She will always be HRH Princess Beatrice, even after her marriage. Princess Margaret, Princess Anne, and Princess Alexandra didn't cease to be Princesses when they married (and Alexandra like Beatrice is a male line granddaughter of a monarch).
Very true. I doubt Beatrice will be stripped of her HRH, given she received her Coat of Arms, and Standard at the same age some people thought she would become Lady Beatrice Windsor.

As for her inheritence of the Dukedom of York, the loophole that she was born before the reforms, could be used (which would make my blood boil. Who would be forced to step aside for her? ) but there is no reason why she couldn't inherit York, provided Harry doesn't become an Earl, in order to receive it (something I really don't want to happen, much as I adore him*) Can anyone tell me why she can't anyway?

I have heard about the historical example of Princess Alexandra, Duchess of Fife. She was The Duchess of Fife in her own right, and her Son was able to receive the courtesy title of The Earl of Macduff. He predeceased her, but the Dukedom was able to go to her Famale line Nephew (the current Duke of Fife) when she herself died.

Am I unaware of a big change that happened? (this was post 1917) If so it would be great if the constitution could be ammended to allow Female inheritence again.

*No, not in that way
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  #209  
Old 04-19-2011, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Duchess of Darwin View Post
Very true. I doubt Beatrice will be stripped of her HRH, given she received her Coat of Arms, and Standard at the same age some people thought she would become Lady Beatrice Windsor.

As for her inheritence of the Dukedom of York, the loophole that she was born before the reforms, could be used (which would make my blood boil. Who would be forced to step aside for her? ) but there is no reason why she couldn't inherit York, provided Harry doesn't become an Earl, in order to receive it (something I really don't want to happen, much as I adore him*) Can anyone tell me why she can't anyway?

I have heard about the historical example of Princess Alexandra, Duchess of Fife. She was The Duchess of Fife in her own right, and her Son was able to receive the courtesy title of The Earl of Macduff. He predeceased her, but the Dukedom was able to go to her Famale line Nephew (the current Duke of Fife) when she herself died.

Am I unaware of a big change that happened? (this was post 1917) If so it would be great if the constitution could be ammended to allow Female inheritence again.

*No, not in that way

The situation with Fife was that the King issued new LPs to allow for the female line to inherit when it was clear there were going to be no sons.

I highly doubt that there will be any intention of giving Harry an Earldom in anticipation of York for a number of reasons

1 - Andrew is only 51 and could easily live another 30 or more years meaning Harry has to wait that long
2 - by the time Andrew dies it is more than likely that William will be King and could have two sons of his own and want York for his second son.
3 - Andrew could, at any time, remarry and have a son and that would immediately mean Harry misses out on a Dukedom

The difference with Edward was that he is in the line of inheritance to the Edinburgh title (and could theoretically actually inherit it directly from his father although unlikely - it would take Charles, William, Harry and Andrew to all predecease Philip with no additional male heirs. That would have Beatrice becoming Queen (or a daughter of William's) and Edinburgh passing to Edward. In addtion in 1999 Philip was already 78 and so the expection was that he would pass on sooner rather than later - not saying they expected him to die before he reached 90 or anything like that but certainly not in 30 - 40 years time which is what would be the expectation for Andrew's life at this point in time (making Harry well into his 60s).
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  #210  
Old 04-19-2011, 11:41 AM
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  #211  
Old 04-19-2011, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
The situation with Fife was that the King issued new LPs to allow for the female line to inherit when it was clear there were going to be no sons.
Why don't these LPs now apply to the York title? Were they replaced?
I'm not attacking you, I'm just confused Is it to do with the fact that Andrew could remarry and produce a Son, while Alexandra's Father died without any? Regardless of why Beatrice can not currently inherit the Dukedom, she should be allowed to. Why should it be better vacant than hers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvebertie View Post
I highly doubt that there will be any intention of giving Harry an Earldom in anticipation of York for a number of reasons

1 - Andrew is only 51 and could easily live another 30 or more years meaning Harry has to wait that long
2 - by the time Andrew dies it is more than likely that William will be King and could have two sons of his own and want York for his second son.
3 - Andrew could, at any time, remarry and have a son and that would immediately mean Harry misses out on a Dukedom

The difference with Edward was that he is in the line of inheritance to the Edinburgh title (and could theoretically actually inherit it directly from his father although unlikely - it would take Charles, William, Harry and Andrew to all predecease Philip with no additional male heirs. That would have Beatrice becoming Queen (or a daughter of William's) and Edinburgh passing to Edward. In addtion in 1999 Philip was already 78 and so the expection was that he would pass on sooner rather than later - not saying they expected him to die before he reached 90 or anything like that but certainly not in 30 - 40 years time which is what would be the expectation for Andrew's life at this point in time (making Harry well into his 60s).
This is why I don't think Harry will aquire the Dukedom of York He is likely to be The King's Brother, by the time it becomes available, hence, he wouldn't be eligable to be granted it. This doesn't stop Wikipedia from saying that the Earl situation will "most likely" happen, though
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  #212  
Old 04-19-2011, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Duchess of Darwin View Post
Why don't these LPs now apply to the York title? Were they replaced?
I'm not attacking you, I'm just confused Is it to do with the fact that Andrew could remarry and produce a Son, while Alexandra's Father died without any? Regardless of why Beatrice can not currently inherit the Dukedom, she should be allowed to. Why should it be better vacant than hers?



This is why I don't think Harry will aquire the Dukedom of York He is likely to be The King's Brother, by the time it becomes available, hence, he wouldn't be eligable to be granted it. This doesn't stop Wikipedia from saying that the Earl situation will "most likely" happen, though
Beatrice can't inherit the Dukedom because the LP creating the Dukedom of York specified that the Dukedom be passed down to the male-line heir. A new LP would have to be created in order for Beatrice to get the Dukedom, and even so, it may not be possible as long as the current Duke of York is alive. There was another thread on this forum about this kind of situation.

As for Prince Harry, I'm sure he know he's not going to get the Dukedom of York ever, but I'm sure he doesn't care that much. Besides the Dukedom of York is NOT restricted to the 2nd son of the Monarch, just been traditionally given to the 2nd son--there's no restriction on who the Dukedom can be granted to. Of course once the present Duke of York pass away and the Dukedom goes extinct and revert to the Crown, then King Charles/George or William can recreate it for Harry if he want it that badly and the King is fine with that.

I have the feeling that once Prince Harry marry, he'll get a Dukedom as the son and brother of 2 future Monarches and that'll be it. Some have talked about Earldom, but I think he's too close to the Throne for that to happen.
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  #213  
Old 04-20-2011, 12:03 AM
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Thanks for givng me the info.

There would be nothing to stop Harry from becoming an Earl, with the expectation of becoming The Duke of York, but it wouldn't be like him to feel that he must be The Duke of York, having been the second Son of The Sovereign.

As for Beatrice inheriting, it won't necessarily happen, but a Letters Patient is much easier to deal with than the Constitution. Am I right in assuming that changing the succesion rules for the Dukedom of York, would not be as hard as abolishing Male primogeniture?
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  #214  
Old 04-20-2011, 01:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Duchess of Darwin View Post
Thanks for givng me the info.

There would be nothing to stop Harry from becoming an Earl, with the expectation of becoming The Duke of York, but it wouldn't like him to feel that he must be The Duke of York, having been the second Son of The Sovereign.

As for Beatrice inheriting, it won't necessarily happen, but a Letters Patient is much easier to deal with than the Constitution. Am I right in assuming that changing the succesion rules for the Dukedom of York, would not be as hard as abolishing Male primogeniture?

It would be relatively easy to change the inheritance for the York Dukedom to allow Beatrice to inherit by simply recreating it for Andrew with a new remainder that allowed females to inherit if no sons - couldn't go completely gender neutral as the initial LPs allowed for heirs male of the body and if a second creation was done that allowed for gender neutral inheritance it would be possible in the years ahead for there to be two holders of the title - the one through the eldest child and the one in the male line - assuming Andrew ever married and had a son.

To change the primogeniture issue for titles other than the monarch can be dealt with simply by the British parliament but for the monarch it will require legislation in all countries of which the Queen is Queen and that isn't a given with a couple still having much stronger attitudes to male preference - e.g. Tuvalu. I was talking to a couple of parents of one of my students about this the other day, not realising actually that they came from Tuvalu - and they said they didn't think their government would agree to it as male primogeniture is still the preferred entity within that nation.
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Old 04-20-2011, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
It would be relatively easy to change the inheritance for the York Dukedom to allow Beatrice to inherit by simply recreating it for Andrew with a new remainder that allowed females to inherit if no sons - couldn't go completely gender neutral as the initial LPs allowed for heirs male of the body and if a second creation was done that allowed for gender neutral inheritance it would be possible in the years ahead for there to be two holders of the title - the one through the eldest child and the one in the male line - assuming Andrew ever married and had a son.

To change the primogeniture issue for titles other than the monarch can be dealt with simply by the British parliament but for the monarch it will require legislation in all countries of which the Queen is Queen and that isn't a given with a couple still having much stronger attitudes to male preference - e.g. Tuvalu. I was talking to a couple of parents of one of my students about this the other day, not realising actually that they came from Tuvalu - and they said they didn't think their government would agree to it as male primogeniture is still the preferred entity within that nation.
Thanks

I knew it that to abolish Male primogeniture, in the line of succession to The Throne, would be very difficult, but I wasn't sure about peerages. I was under the impression that what applied to one peerage, applied to all, hence why the historical Fife example perplexed me.
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  #216  
Old 04-20-2011, 06:15 AM
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http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/op...-15144441.html
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  #217  
Old 04-20-2011, 06:59 AM
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Great article!
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Old 04-20-2011, 03:12 PM
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They could always change the succession laws to equal primogeniture to only apply to the generation of William and Catherine's children; that way it wouldn't affect what's already in place. It's already been done in Spain, the Netherlands and Norway.
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Old 04-20-2011, 03:14 PM
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They could always change the succession laws to equal primogeniture to only apply to the generation of William and Catherine's children; that way it wouldn't affect what's already in place. It's already been done in Spain, the Netherlands and Norway.
I know about Scandinavian monarchies,but I've never heard about Spain adopting the equal primogeniture
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Old 04-20-2011, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
To change the primogeniture issue for titles other than the monarch can be dealt with simply by the British parliament but for the monarch it will require legislation in all countries of which the Queen is Queen and that isn't a given with a couple still having much stronger attitudes to male preference - e.g. Tuvalu. I was talking to a couple of parents of one of my students about this the other day, not realising actually that they came from Tuvalu - and they said they didn't think their government would agree to it as male primogeniture is still the preferred entity within that nation.
Ah, karma!

I doubt it ever entered the minds of the explorers and colonisers that one day those they attached to the Empire would have such power over Britain.
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