Possible Scottish Independence and the Monarchy

[Duc_et_Pair]

Well, Scotland is, like the rest of present-day United Kingdom, already member of the EU, of course. Scotland WILL remain part of the EU and the NATO, no matter how. Both EU and NATO will wringle themselves in all possible directions to make that happen. We all can be sure about that. No way that the EU opens its doors for Serbia but forces Scotland out. That will simply never happen.

It will be more democratical anyway: all members of the European Parliament have been chosen which can not be said about 774 (!) seats in the House of Lords down there in far-away London. Moreover the EU Parliament is chosen with a percentual representation and not with a first-past-the-post-system which can cause that a party wins ALL votes of a constituency without even have won a majority on their own (the winner, even by narrowest margin, takes it all). I have the idea that for the Nationalists in Scotland Westminster is equally filled with "faceless bureaucrats" as Brussels anyway....

 

[Roslyn]

The prospect of the country into which I was born being split up and dismantled make me sick to the stomach...

Those seeking 'independence', will in reality be ruled by faceless bureaucrats from Brussels, since Scotland will apply to join the EU, and [according to the treaty of Maastricht] MUST use the Euro as its currency. Consequently the illusion of independence is just that... an ILLUSION.
Financial and economic decisions will be taken in Brussels, and if the Scots believe their Euro masters will look fondly on the Scots 'social model' [low tax. high benefits] they are simply WRONG.

Separatism is a backward step, and splintering into ever smaller units even more so... We are BETTER TOGETHER !

This article states that an independent Scotland would not have to use the euro, and would enter into a currency agreement with the remaining UK and continue to use the pound: Common sense on currency | Yes Scotland

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

Sometimes i think if Hawaii wanted to go I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with it, bit thqts just because of some history i have heard. I am less incormed about Hawaii tha. I am on Texas and the South. Didnt Hawaiins vote on whether to join the US? Did other states get a vote? Same with Puerto Rico and whether it is Puerto Ricans who live there or who have migrated to different states it should still only be there decision not Rhode Island, not DC, not South Carolina. Why would living in a different state prevent Puerto Ricans from voting on annexation or secession? Perhaps it is differentitled in other countries but American citizens living abroad are still allowed to vote.
I never said that the years Scotland was independent matter, I just made a comparison because someone said that because it was a part of GB for 300 yrs means it should stay that way.
I live in Texas and am very aware we were once an independent country who requested to be annexed as a state thereby no longer being a country. Just a couple of years ago my moronic governor brought up succession from the US and no one took him seriously. Again I shouLD not give much option on the South and their states rights/Civil War because then this thread would get locked.
Whether Scotland is doing the right thing or not I stand by that they should make the decision not the English or Welsh etc. Same with Puerto Rico if it ever occurred in the US.

I have the idea that for the Nationalists in Scotland Westminster is equally filled with "faceless bureaucrats" as Brussels anyway....

My thoughts exactly.

.

Rudeness, I ameth notheth a barbarianeth. I've lived here for decades but my city, well I personally, feel more kinship with New Mexico than the rest of Texas. I will sustain my resolve not to say anything more about the rest of my state or other Southern states. This Barbarian will remain civil and keep quite.

 

[Chubb Fuddler]

If the referendum succeeds, the Queen may become Head of State of Scotland, but what does this actually entail? There seems to be some historic or romantic appeal to the idea of a Queen of Scots for the first time in three hundred years. But there is nothing pre-1707 about the draft constitution of Scotland, which will not even be called a kingdom. Section 9, on the Head of State, is actually quite vague in some ways:

9 Head of State

(1) Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth is to be Head of State, as Queen.

(2) Her Majesty is to be succeeded as Head of State (and as Queen or, as the case may be, King) by Her heirs and successors to the Crown according to law.

(3) Her Majesty, and Her successors to the Crown, continue to enjoy all the rights, powers and privileges which, according to law, attached to the Crown in Scotland immediately before Independence Day​

What law is governing succession to the Crown? What will be the Queen’s title: Queen of Scotland or Head of State of Scotland? What is the role of the Head of State in the government of Scotland? With sovereignty vested in the people of Scotland, rather than the Crown in Parliament, there may not be very much for the Queen to do.

The draft constitution is just that, a draft, so who knows what the proposed Constitutional Convention would eventually recommend. In a way I think things are being done in the wrong order. A constitution should be written first, then you know exactly what you are going to get if you vote for independence.

I wouldn't assume it's disdain for the monarchy why Australia is moving towards independence

Australia is not moving towards independence, it is already there. The British government has no role to play whatsoever in the government of Australia. The Australian monarch, on the advice of her Australian ministers, appoints our Governors-General. The single crown of the British Empire, over time, divided into separate national crowns in the independent nations of which Elizabeth II is Queen. I work with a chap from New Zealand and I like to remind him that he is the subject of a foreign Queen. He get’s all worked up and says “but it’s the same person”, to which I reply; “same person, different crowns.” In theory, the Queen of Australia could find herself at war with the Queen of New Zealand if our neighbours decided to invade.

 

[An Ard Ri]

The most recent opinion polls have the yes campaign ahead but that could all change,I'm thinking its too close to call .My paternal family are solid English and I'll be keeping a close watch on the developments as they unfold!

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The Acts of Union pertaining to both the Scots and English Parliaments, will possibly be superceded in 2016 when Scotland's Independence is proclaimed. At that point, the Queen becomes Her Majesty, Elizabeth, Queen of Scots. Rather than independence negatively affecting the Windsors, this may actually be an opportunity for the precise opposite.

 

[Bine221]

Ok, rather than discussing the PROs and CONs with enthusiasm (to put it mildly) I rather would bring the discussion back to Scotlands Election and Royalty.

And I am thinking about the happy News from today.... that Catherine is expecting her second child.
MY first Impression was: what a happy coincidence in Terms of Timing .... could this help to prevent the Royalist Scots NOT to vote for independence? Just a guess, I am open to hear your comments!

BYe Bine

 

[Spheno]

This article states that an independent Scotland would not have to use the euro, and would enter into a currency agreement with the remaining UK and continue to use the pound: Common sense on currency | Yes Scotland

Scotland can't use the pound without UK permit. It will be UK decision, not Scotland.

I really sorry for all non-Scots, who live in Scotland now, and for all Scots, who worked in other parts of UK. They will have a lot of problems.

 

[wyevale]

To fondly imagine the Scots can continue to utilise the £ sterling in the event of independence is simply wishful thinking on the part of those here on this forum, and elsewhere who would like nothing more than to see the dismemberment of Great Britain...
All three Political parties in England are against it, the Bank of England is against it AND the vast majority of the populace is against it too.
Make no mistake - the groundwell of resentment against a Scotland that turns its back on us, will prevent the politicians from backtracking and allowing a foreign country from using the £.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Scotland can't use the pound without UK permit. It will be UK decision, not Scotland.

I really sorry for all non-Scots, who live in Scotland now, and for all Scots, who worked in other parts of UK. They will have a lot of problems.

But Scotland is very much part of the UK as England. It is not that the Pound is exclusively English. The Pound is also backed up by Scottish assets, Scottish savings and Scottish potential (North Sea oil!)... Salmond is right that the Unionists can not claim sole exclusivity over the Pound. This requires negotiations about a decent split, like was done when Ireland split away, when Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia and the Soviet-Union split in several states. Nothing stops the Scots to use the Scottish Pound.

 

[Iluvbertie]

They can use the Scottish pound but not the Pound Stirling. They can link their currency to the Stirling but they won't have any say over the exchange rate or other monetary decisions as that will be controlled in Westminster.

 

[wyevale]

But the Bank of ENGLAND is the central bank of the UK... An 'independant' Scotland could choose to use the £, in the same way Panama uses the US $ but will have no control of monetary policy relating to 'its' currency.
And the Bank of England is unlikely to be happy, as guarantor 'of last resort' of Scottish Financial institutions. The Scots can use cupcakes as currency if they chose, but who will lend them money [since the oil is running out and they have no industry left [to speak of] ?

 

[Mbruno]

As Ireland's example shows, it won't take long for an independent Scotland to become a republic. Alex Salmond's promise to keep the monarchy following a 'Yes' vote is just another attempt to mislead the voters, like his claims that Scotland will be able to keep the pound or stay in the EU and NATO. Genuine monarchists should rally around the Union if they want the monarchy to survive in Scotland in the long run.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

It will all fold nicely, like it was done in Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Croatia, etc. All these nations have their own currency and managed to make a good distribution. That Mr Salmond is claiming the Pound just fits in his tactics and strategy. After all the Scots and the English use the same currency for 300 years since a merge with the former Scottish Pound in 1707. In that meaning Mr Salmond is right that the UK Pound is as much Scottish as it is English. He is just creating a position for his case.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

As Ireland's example shows, it won't take long for an independent Scotland to become a republic. Alex Salmond's promise to keep the monarchy following a 'Yes' vote is just another attempt to mislead the voters, like his claims that Scotland will be able to keep the pound or stay in the EU and NATO. Genuine monarchists should rally around the Union if they want the monarchy to survive in Scotland in the long run.

Of course, it would not surprise me if there will be a referendum about the monarchy. But is that not just asking the Scots what they prefer? No one forces the Scots to get rid of the Queen.

As I said in a previous post: rather than independence negatively affecting the Windsors, this may actually be an opportunity for the precise opposite. Despite draping Balmoral in tartan wallhangings, to me, as an outsider, it looks like the Windsors are mainly seen as English and not felt as Scottish. A more outspoken Scottish role will only attribute to a closer relationship with the Scottish people, I guess...

 

[wyevale]

Well said Mbruno..

 

[PrincessOfPeace]

Scotland's First Minister Alex Salmond has been accused of playing politics with today's Royal baby announcement.

The SNP leader used the official Scottish titles of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge in a message welcoming the news this morning. He wrote: 'Congratulations & best wishes to the Earl & Countess of Strathearn. Wonderful to hear they're expecting their second baby – very happy news!'

Mr Salmond's intervention, just 10 days before the Scottish independence referendum, comes amid mounting mounting concern in Buckingham Palace about the prospect of a ‘yes’ vote.

The future of the Royal family has been a source of debate in the independence campaign, but the 'Yes' camp have insisted that the Queen will remain head of state in a future independent Scotland
.
But one Labour MP today suggested Mr Salmond had used the Royal couple's official Scottish titles to ram home the point that the monarchy would still be in place after independence.

'Shameless' Salmond accused of playing politics with Royal baby joy after congratulating 'Earl and Countess of Stathearn' | Mail Online

 

[Lumutqueen]

Just pointing this out that one YouGov poll which predicted a 51% one is all everyone is going one. One poll that asked about a 1000 people.

 

[Queen Camilla]

British Empire: Entering and Exiting the Empire

Here is a list of countries/colonies/areas that were once controlled by Britain.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

'Shameless' Salmond accused of playing politics with Royal baby joy after congratulating 'Earl and Countess of Stathearn' | Mail Online

What is shameless about that? When the Prince and Princess of Wales are in Scotland, they indeed use their Scottish title Duke and Duchess of Rothesay. Their son indeed has the Scottish title Earl of Strathearn.

Pic: the proof is in the eating: http://i1.dailyrecord.co.uk/incomin...hen-in-Scotland-unveils-a-plaque-during-2.jpg

 

[Mbruno]

I wonder, if Scotland leaves the UK, will the Spanish government be able to resist holding an independence referendum in Catalonia, which is far more likely to vote for separation than Scotland ? What about Flandres and Belgium ? Can Scottish independence boost separatist movements throughout Western Europe ?

PS: Note that both Catalan and Flemish separatists support a republican form of government to replace the monarchy.

 

[Sunnystar]

Mbruno, that is precisely one of the reasons why Scottish membership in the EU is not a guarantee. There is a strong belief that the Spanish and Belgian governments would oppose Scotland's admission to the EU because it would encourage the separatist movements in their own countries.

That issue, along with the currency issue and the fact that Alex Salmond is no more a monarchist than the US is a monarchy, would make me vote no. But it's not my vote to cast as I'm only an American of mixed European descent (albeit with a lovely Scottish last name and a firm appreciation for that part of my heritage).

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Mbruno, that is precisely one of the reasons why Scottish membership in the EU is not a guarantee. There is a strong belief that the Spanish and Belgian governments would oppose Scotland's admission to the EU because it would encourage the separatist movements in their own countries.

That issue, along with the currency issue and the fact that Alex Salmond is no more a monarchist than the US is a monarchy, would make me vote no. But it's not my vote to cast as I'm only an American of mixed European descent (albeit with a lovely Scottish last name and a firm appreciation for that part of my heritage).

At the same time also the democratically elected governments of Belgium and Spain will be faced with a fait accompli. Dare they to ignore the outcome of a fully legal and democratic process? This while Belgian or Spanish politicians went to Maidan Square in Kiev to support demonstrators whom overthrew a democratically elected president and Government? It would be interesting on which grounds Belgium and Spain will block the entrance of Scotland while they did allow Slovenia, Croatia, etc. to enter the Union.

Note also that the Spanish and Belgian Governments have not uttered any word about the Scottish case. All what we have heard and read were interpretations, expectations and opinions from outsiders.

 

[wyevale]

Brussels has 'form' is rejecting 'fully legal an democratic proceeds'...

It refused to abide by Irelands referendum results, and simply bombarded the Irish with [Publicly paid for] propaganda until it got the result it wanted...

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Sure, but here the government of an EU memberstate facilitated a fully legal and democratic referendum. When the outcome would be that Scotland should become an independent country and the remaining UK and the new state have reached an agreement on how to do the split in a prudent and responsible manner, there is no way the EU will block a prosperous North-European state from a membership while opening doors for Albania or Ukraine.

Anyway, I think the Scots will, with a narrow margin, vote for continuation within the Union. The problem will be that when such a margin is so narrow, the question will keep returning, with all unrest. Maybe it is better to split and live in harmony, two neighbouring thrones under one King. It happened before: the Kings of the Netherlands were Grand Dukes of Luxembourg as well.

 

[wyevale]

The EU has pronouced [in Olympian, magisterial terms] that there will be NO further accession counties accepted for membership until 2025... To allow 'intergration' to proceed smoothly [a pronouncement worthy of 'the BORG']. So good luck with that Scotland, Albania, Ukraine & Turkey...

The EU has had its hands burned badly by its 'Imperial overstetch' escapades in Kiev, and since the 25 existing members agree on [practically] nothing it is probably better for it to 'take stock', and do nothing precipitate .

 

[Al_bina]

I do not think that the EU is rich enough to bail out Ukraine. Some of the 25 existing members do not want to hurt their economies any further. Scotland and Turkey, which has good cultural and economic relations with Kazakhstan and burnt badly resolving the Syrian situation and dealing with the hypocritical western regimes, could follow Finland's example and profit from it.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

What is Finland situation in the EU?
And speaking of Ukraine cam someone point me to a thread about the situation that has erupted there earlier this year, I'd there is one?

 

[Al_bina]

To the best of my knowledge, Finland is a neutral country that maintains business dealings with both the Russian Federation and the EU/other western countries on equal terms. The Ukrainian situation will completely off the topic.

 

[wyevale]