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  #141  
Old 09-07-2014, 05:54 PM
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This is a personal reply to recent tweets.

I am British first, then English (place of birth and domicile) but my family (mum and dad) are rooted in Scotland and Ireland.

I want the Union to remain but I am still troubled that I have no say. this hurts because I am British and it is my country that could be divided. And if Scotland leave The Union, that will be painful to me.

I have considered what Id need to know to make my own decision (as if I were voting) and there are too many unknowns, including my currency, my pension and my defence. the answers are not available.

If they decide to leave then I'l respect their decision but realise that there is no coming back.

It is very difficult
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  #142  
Old 09-07-2014, 06:45 PM
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It will be interesting to see if the possible Scottish Independence will negatively affect the UK. The British sycophantic politicians are pathetic though.
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  #143  
Old 09-07-2014, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Al_bina View Post
It will be interesting to see if the possible Scottish Independence will negatively affect the UK. The British sycophantic politicians are pathetic though.
i am appalled by your reply. It shows a complete lack of respect for GB and its people.
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  #144  
Old 09-07-2014, 06:55 PM
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Cepe, I can identify with your feelings on this. As an Ulster-Scot, I grew up very aware of my Scottish heritage. We always wanted Scottish sports teams to do well because, although we were British first and foremost, we were almost equally Northern Irish and Scottish. The idea of Scottish independence is incredibly distressing for me and my whole family.

On a broader level, I have no doubt that it is probably even more distressing for the Queen and the RF. I have zero doubt that HM does not want to go down in history as the monarch under whom the United Kingdom was destroyed. She must also be aware that the Monarchy's days are numbered in an independent Scotland, whatever the nationalists say in public.

All of this must also be very worrying for Kings Felipe and Philippe. Given the separatist movements in Spain and Belgium, I'll bet they're watching this situation with no small amount of apprehension.
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  #145  
Old 09-07-2014, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by cepe View Post
i am appalled by your reply. It shows a complete lack of respect for GB and its people.
One has to be pragmatic. It would be naive and short-sighted to care about emotions. That is what we heard from your sleazy politician in 1990s. If there is an end of the Union, it will be a local-level tragedy for certain individuals. That is all.
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  #146  
Old 09-07-2014, 07:07 PM
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Don't really care how the English or Queen feels, this is about what is best for Scotland and it's people.
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  #147  
Old 09-07-2014, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Al_bina View Post
One has to be pragmatic. It would be naive and short-sighted to care about emotions. That is what we heard from your sleazy politician in 1990s. If there is an end of the Union, it will be a local-level tragedy for certain individuals. That is all.
i am so sorry for you.
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  #148  
Old 09-07-2014, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
Don't really care how the English or Queen feels, this is about what is best for Scotland and it's people.
What about us Northern Irish? Or the Welsh? Are we not allowed an opinion on the imminent destruction of our country? This decision has enormous ramifications for the rest of the UK and also Europe.

This is an emotional issue for many of us. You "don't really care", but many of us do.
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  #149  
Old 09-07-2014, 07:33 PM
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Are you Scottish? Then nope don't care about your feelings either. This is a question of Scottish independence and the future of their country. You, the Irish or the Welsh want to stay with England by all means go for it, but don't force others to do the same when they are ready to move on.
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  #150  
Old 09-07-2014, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
Don't really care how the English or Queen feels, this is about what is best for Scotland and it's people.
Imagine if 3-4 major states decided to secede from the Union? The impact on your country? On other states? On the Federal system? On where you can travel and wheee you cant???

Would you feel anything? Would you care? Would you be concerned about the end of the United States as ypu know it?

i hurt because my country is under threat And I have no recourse.

judging by the responses so far, I regret opening up on this forum. Thats sad.
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  #151  
Old 09-07-2014, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by cepe View Post
i am so sorry for you.
It would be incorrect to feel sorry for me. The world map tends to undergo changes in the course of time. So the UK map may change this time. I guess that is all.
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  #152  
Old 09-07-2014, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by cepe View Post

judging by the responses so far, I regret opening up on this forum. Thats sad.
Me too, cepe. I didn't expect to be belittled for having fears for the future of our country and ALL its people. Silly me.
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  #153  
Old 09-07-2014, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Al_bina View Post
It would be incorrect to feel sorry for me. The world map tends to undergo changes in the course of time. So the UK map may change this time. I guess that is all.
Foxtrot! This is sad and why there are problems in Eastern Europe today.

i wrote about my personal view as a. Brit. you show no respect for that which does not impact on my position. I care about GB and I care about Scotland. both are my homelands. I care. Thats the difference.
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  #154  
Old 09-07-2014, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cepe View Post
Imagine if 3-4 major states decided to secede from the Union? The impact on your country? On other states? On the Federal system? On where you can travel and wheee you cant???

Would you feel anything? Would you care? Would you be concerned about the end of the United States as ypu know it?

i hurt because my country is under threat And I have no recourse.

judging by the responses so far, I regret opening up on this forum. Thats sad.
The united states is one country not 3 of 4 countries put together some by force some by inheritance. If Puerto Rico wanted to go off on their own I would feel the same way. If London wanted to suede from the rest of England I would get your point, but that is not the case. This is a separate country that has become joined with other countries 4 centuries ago, now it wants to unjoin and apparently become like Australia u til they formally decide to 86 the monarchy. This situation reminds me of East Europ3an countries being forced to stay under the SV, not the comminusn but the reluctance to allow a group of people their independence.
England and Scotland aren't the Eastern European states, I don't see the situation of an independent Scotland becoming that volatile.
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  #155  
Old 09-07-2014, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Al_bina View Post
It would be incorrect to feel sorry for me. The world map tends to undergo changes in the course of time. So the UK map may change this time. I guess that is all.
I assumed Australia was going to be the first to officially jump ship. How old is the Scottish independence movement? It really floors me that in 2014 a country wanting it's independence is viewed as a bad thing.
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  #156  
Old 09-07-2014, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
The united states is one country not 3 of 4 countries put together some by force some by inheritance. If Puerto Rico wanted to go off on their own I would feel the same way. If London wanted to suede from the rest of England I would get your point, but that is not the case. This is a separate country that has become joined with other countries 4 centuries ago, now it wants to unjoin and apparently become like Australia u til they formally decide to 86 the monarchy. This situation reminds me of East Europ3an countries being forced to stay under the SV, not the comminusn but the reluctance to allow a group of people their independence.
England and Scotland aren't the Eastern European states, I don't see the situation of an independent Scotland becoming that volatile.

Xenia you are correct. The states are not separate nations. But that being said Puerto Rico is a country to itself and has held votes to separate from the U.S. and if that happens, so be it. Scotland is Scotland and should have the right to determine how they will be governed.
It is not an English state colony. It was overrun centuries ago and, if they wish separation, it is not for me or anyone who is not a Scot to say.
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  #157  
Old 09-07-2014, 08:04 PM
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This is an issue that is bound to tug at the heartstrings of some people and be met with a totally objective response by others. I fully understand that anyone for whom Scotland is or was home and/or has close relatives living there, and who has affectionate feelings about England and the rest of the UK and doesn't want their country torn apart, and/or feels the Queen will be hurt if the vote is in favour of independence, will be hoping the union remains.

I don't have that close connection though, and I take the view that what is most important is what the people who have the right to a vote on the issue decide is best for them. As Al Bina observed: the world map tends to undergo changes in the course of time, and the UK map may change this time. The fact that the Queen's feelings might be hurt is totally irrelevant to me.
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  #158  
Old 09-07-2014, 08:23 PM
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The problem to me is that many people who will be affected by the breakup of the country aren't even allowed a say.

The country is the UK of GB and NI - ONE country but only a fraction of that nation is allowed to have a say in its breakup.

In the US when some states wanted to break free they were forced back into the union at the point of a gun - hardly a democratic way to go about things.

I also find it interesting to see a comment such as 'I assumed Australia was going to be the first to officially jump ship' coming into the equation. Australia became independent via stages starting in the 1820s with limited self-government to the colony of NSW and then full self-government over internal affairs for the colonies in the 1850s and then federation in 1901 and finally taking control of our foreign policy in 1942, backdated to 1939. We weren't the first though as Canada had gone through a similar process and South Africa actually took control of its foreign policy before either Canada, Australia or NZ or any other dominion.

As for dumping the monarchy - the Queen started her reign as Queen of 54 different nations and now has only 16 so neither Australia nor Scotland would be the first to dump her as she has seen it happen many times before.

The UK is breaking up and that is sad for the simple reason that a nation that has shared so much history it tearing itself apart.

I have family and friends in Scotland and they are very sad that friendships and even families are torn apart - one set of relatives have severed all connection to another over this issue and also have ceased all communication with their English relatives.

The Queen, it should also be remember, is half-Scottish as her mother was Scottish and her sister was even born there. Her daughter and grand-daughter chose to marry in Scotland and she is currently holidaying there - which is where she has spent her summer holidays pretty well all her life with the possible exception of the war years - not for her the glamour of the Caribbean or the south of France but Scotland. Her husband, sons and even some of her grandchildren were educated there (Peter and Zara at Gordonstoun and William and Kate at St Andrews - Kate is of course a granddaughter in law), her family hold Scottish titles along with English, Irish and Welsh ones.

I don't see a winner in the short term for this referendum as the vitriol is so deep and so vicious that regardless of the result the wounds will be very deep and take a long time to heal - if they ever do.
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  #159  
Old 09-07-2014, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
I assumed Australia was going to be the first to officially jump ship. How old is the Scottish independence movement? It really floors me that in 2014 a country wanting it's independence is viewed as a bad thing.
We started out as a British Colony - as part of Britain - and our move towards independence has been gradual and more a case of a child growing up and reaching adulthood and wanting to leave the nest. And, to some extent, being kicked out of the nest. Scotland was an independent country forced into a union with another country. There have been some rebellions during Australia's history but not years and years of bloody battles.

Even now our republican movement is motivated primarily by a desire to have an Australian Head of State rather than any disdain for England/the UK or with to be free of it, and this only becomes significant when something happens that draws our attention to the fact that our theoretical Head of State is a foreigner who doesn't give priority to Australia and Australians. Like cheering for our opponents in sporting events. Our Constitution provides that the executive power of the Commonwealth is vested in the Queen and is exercisable by the Governor‑General as the Queen's representative, and a number of scholars argue that our Governor-General is in fact our Head of State. For all practical purposes our Governor-General is our Head of State and we muddle along very nicely with input/interference from the British Monarch. "Independence" as such is really not an issue that burns deeply within most Australians.
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  #160  
Old 09-07-2014, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by cepe View Post
Imagine if 3-4 major states decided to secede from the Union? The impact on your country? On other states? On the Federal system? On where you can travel and wheee you cant???



Would you feel anything? Would you care? Would you be concerned about the end of the United States as ypu know it?



i hurt because my country is under threat And I have no recourse.



judging by the responses so far, I regret opening up on this forum. Thats sad.

Cepe, I appreciate that you've shared your opinions here.

Coming from a country that has its own history of separatist issues I know what it feels like to watch as movements try to tear a country that I care dearly apart. I'm not old enough to have been aware of events when the last Quebec referendum occurred, but I do know my Canadian history and I do follow politics, so I realize that the issue is far from resolved here (and I know that Quebec is just the tip of the iceberg of Canadian unity). It would break my heart to see the country that I live in and the country that my ancestors built torn apart. Especially if it happened without my having a vote in the matter.

I don't necessarily buy into the idea that an independent Scotland is what's best for Scotland and the Scots, although I can understand where that feeling can originate - as much as I'm in support of continued Canadian confederation there have been many times when I've realized that what is best for my province is not what is happening on a federal level, and I imagine that the Scots feel that way too, combined with a long history of troubles between the Scots and the British and English governments. I read somewhere once that the problem with the Scots is they have long memories, while the problem with the English is they have short ones. This move for Scottish independence seems to me to be more the Scots remembering issues of the past and blaming them for the issues of the present rather than looking for an actual viable solution to these problems.

I ultimately have no say whatsoever in this decision, and I shouldn't as I'm not Scottish or British in any way other than ethnicity. But I do hope independence loses because I don't think this is good for Scotland or Great Britain.
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