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  #81  
Old 03-31-2014, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
Thanks for the wonderful information, but just a quick question.. Since we are now taking into consideration of the illegitimate lines of possibly succeeding the throne, wouldn't the natural children of James II preceed that of the natural children of his older brother Charles II? so after the Dukes of Alba who were the descendants of James FitzJames, Duke of Berwick, shouldn't be the next in line be the descendants of James II eldest daughter Henrietta FitzJames which includes the Earls Waldergrave, Dukes of Grafton and Earls Spencer? so wouldn't the Waldergraves, Graftons and Spencers somehow precede the Buccleuchs?

I don't really see why the illegitimate children of the younger son would have to come before the illegitimate children of the elder son, particularly as the eldest illegitimate son of Charles II claimed legitimacy in his lifetime.

My argument wasn't so much that we should be going through all the lines of the Stuarts to find a Scottish monarch. Instead I was trying to say "these are the people who are the senior most descendants in each of the lines that could possibly be seen as having a claim." The children of Henrietta FitzJames would have a claim after the children of James FitzJames, making them a more junior line. However, if we're considering illegitimate lines then I thought it significant to mention the senior most line of Charles II as well.
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  #82  
Old 03-31-2014, 02:23 PM
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Great Britain is the name for the Island that is composed of England, Scotland, and Wales. The United Kingdom of Great Britain refers to the fact that it is a union between to kingdoms - that of England (and Wales) and Scotland.

Britain is a short form version of Great Britain. Therefore, without Scotland it ceases to be Great Britain or Britain at all, and resumes being England (and Wales).

If Scotland left, then it would be the United Kingdom of England and North Ireland.
But can Northern Ireland be classified as a kingdom in it's own right to warrant it being "united" with the Kingdom of England? Should it not be simply "The Kingdom of England and Northern Ireland"?
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  #83  
Old 03-31-2014, 02:27 PM
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Ireland has long been a separate Kingdom from Britain.

Actually, now that I think of it (and google it) the "United Kingdom" part of the name refers to the fact that Great Britain is one kingdom (formed from the union of two Kingdoms, Scotland and England) while Ireland is another kingdom (and now, just Northern Ireland).

Without Scotland in the equation, Britain will cease to be united in one kingdom, but the United Kingdom will still consist of two separate kingdoms - England and Northern Ireland, no matter how small a part Northern Ireland plays.
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  #84  
Old 03-31-2014, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Ish View Post
Ireland has long been a separate Kingdom from Britain.

Actually, now that I think of it (and google it) the "United Kingdom" part of the name refers to the fact that Great Britain is one kingdom (formed from the union of two Kingdoms, Scotland and England) while Ireland is another kingdom (and now, just Northern Ireland).

Without Scotland in the equation, Britain will cease to be united in one kingdom, but the United Kingdom will still consist of two separate kingdoms - England and Northern Ireland, no matter how small a part Northern Ireland plays.
So where does Wales fit in?
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  #85  
Old 03-31-2014, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Ish View Post
Great Britain is the name for the Island that is composed of England, Scotland, and Wales. The United Kingdom of Great Britain refers to the fact that it is a union between to kingdoms - that of England (and Wales) and Scotland.

Britain is a short form version of Great Britain. Therefore, without Scotland it ceases to be Great Britain or Britain at all, and resumes being England (and Wales).

If Scotland left, then it would be the United Kingdom of England and North Ireland.
I don't think Britain is actually a short form version of Great Britain. Great Britain is, like you say, the name of the island that England, Wales and Scotland exist on but there are other islands that are part of these countries that aren't part of the island of Great Britain (Isle of Wight, Orkney etc.). And then you have other areas that are not part of the UK part are part of the British Isles, such as Jersey and maybe even Brittany. These can all be referred to as Britain.

I also don't think it's correct that Great Britain would cease to be if Scotland left because the island itself would still exist, it would just be politically divided.

Sorry for the rant, but I believe that Britain is also a common cultural/political term to refer to the sovereign state of the UK and thus I feel Northern Ireland can be included in that term.
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  #86  
Old 03-31-2014, 02:58 PM
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So where does Wales fit in?

Something that I think people often forget is that as harsh as the English were with their conquests of Scotland and Ireland and subsequent treatment of the peoples and cultures, in some ways they were really worse with the Welsh.

Wales was never a kingdom - it was a principality - and it was conquered long before Scotland and Ireland finally submitted (in as much as they ever submitted).

The conquest of Wales happened in the 13th century, with only one major uprising between then and when the formal Union occurred in 1536. The Welsh didn't really begin to try for more autonomy again until the 20th century. As such, when it comes to the various naming schemes Wales is excluded as it was seen as a part of England.

In 1707 the Acts of Union formed the Kingdom of Great Britain (sometimes known just as Great Britain, sometimes known as the United Kingdom). This was a union of the Kingdoms of England (and Wales) and Scotland. Later, in 1801, another Act took this one Kingdom and united it with another one - Ireland - making the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. After the Irish Free State was formed and Ireland was partitioned, the name was changed to reflect this - United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
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  #87  
Old 03-31-2014, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Ish View Post
Ireland has long been a separate Kingdom from Britain.

Actually, now that I think of it (and google it) the "United Kingdom" part of the name refers to the fact that Great Britain is one kingdom (formed from the union of two Kingdoms, Scotland and England) while Ireland is another kingdom (and now, just Northern Ireland).

Without Scotland in the equation, Britain will cease to be united in one kingdom, but the United Kingdom will still consist of two separate kingdoms - England and Northern Ireland, no matter how small a part Northern Ireland plays.
Thanks for making it make sense to me at last! Of-course, I should have known all along considering my father's side of the family are from Northern Ireland!
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  #88  
Old 03-31-2014, 03:21 PM
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So where does Wales fit in?
Well, Wales is a principality within the Kingdom!
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  #89  
Old 06-21-2014, 10:10 PM
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This must be so distressing to The Queen.

Republican plot to ditch the Queen after Yes vote - The Scotsman

Referendum: Queen refused Cameron calls to back Union - Daily Record
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  #90  
Old 06-21-2014, 10:24 PM
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Why?

She has already seen most of the countries over which she was Queen when she came to the throne tell her to go away so why would she be upset if another one did so (she started with over 50 and now is down to 16 so she is used to countries saying that they don't want her anymore as their Queen).
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  #91  
Old 06-21-2014, 10:40 PM
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Lots of delicious questions.

Is Northern Ireland a separate kingdom? If it is, and on the basis of what is in this article http://resources.woodlands-junior.ke...in/britain.htm assuming "Great Britain" is a name that includes Scotland and that without Scotland the part of the island that includes just England and Wales is only Britain, will the UK become the United Kingdom of Britain and Northern Ireland after Scottish independence? If Northern Ireland is currently only a province of the UK and not a separate kingdom, will what is now the UK then become simply become known as Britain or the Kingdom of Britain?
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  #92  
Old 06-21-2014, 10:52 PM
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The name right now is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, where "Great Britain" refers to England and Scotland and "England" refers to England and Wales.

What the name will be afterwards... Is anyones guess. The easiest root would just be to go "United Kingdom" and drop the "of..." Aspect entirely. Having just "Britain" is misleading because there hasn't been a "Britain" (no Great) since the Romans, and adding in Wales doesn't work because unlike England, Scotland, or Northern Ireland, Wales isn't a kingdom (from the naming scheme, it's a principality within the Kingdom of England).

I would actually argue that this could be distressing to the Queen. While she isn't an newbie to losing realms, it has been awhile since she lost one and it's not really like you can compare Scotland to, say, Fiji. Scotland is a part of her home.
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  #93  
Old 06-21-2014, 11:43 PM
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Who is going to be in charge if this happens? Are the people crying for independence or is it just a group of politicians wanting independence? Would the country then become like Germany is today, where they can elect a president? What I don't get is that so many people can be taken in by the politicians calling for a republic and they know nothing about a republic.......from what I see in the world is that people seem to think all their problems are just going to vanish with a republic and all will be well and that is so darn short sighted. I really hope that Scotland stays where it is right now, my ancestors would not be pleased right now if they break away.
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Old 06-21-2014, 11:52 PM
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It is not so easy for me to answer since I'm dyslexic, but it can not be that difficult to understand why this is distressing to the Queen.

Queen ‘sent for Cameron over Union break-up fear’ | Herald Scotland

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  #95  
Old 06-22-2014, 12:08 AM
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If memory serves, when Quebec had it's referendum in '95, the Queen was quoted as being on the side of remaining in confederation. It doesn't surprise me at all that she would feel similarly about Scotland.
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Old 06-22-2014, 03:46 AM
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If memory serves, when Quebec had it's referendum in '95, the Queen was quoted as being on the side of remaining in confederation. It doesn't surprise me at all that she would feel similarly about Scotland.
Here's the transcript of her phone call with who she thought was Jean Chrétien.
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  #97  
Old 06-22-2014, 03:51 AM
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Here's the transcript of her phone call with who she thought was Jean Chrétien.

Thanks! I've listened to/read the conversation before, and I have to give HM credit - the man does a remarkable Chrétien impersonation.
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  #98  
Old 06-22-2014, 05:13 AM
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Why?
Because, Iluvbertie, HMQ is half Scots herself, and like many people in these islands has ties woven into the warp and weft of the union that has existed since 1707..

That Nationalists seek to create barriers and division between us will be of lasting sadness to the Queen, as it is to all those of us who believe we are BETTER TOGETHER, rather than rent apart !
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  #99  
Old 06-22-2014, 08:26 AM
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Who is going to be in charge if this happens? Are the people crying for independence or is it just a group of politicians wanting independence? Would the country then become like Germany is today, where they can elect a president? .

As far as I am aware things leadership wise in reference to The Queen will stay the same. Alex Salmond will probably become PM. It's politicians crying for attention against English government. I would put money on Scotland voting no.
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  #100  
Old 06-22-2014, 09:09 AM
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If yes wins, the possibility exist for most radical nationalist to force a vote on the monarchy in Scotland.
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