The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Reigning Houses > British Royals

Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #481  
Old 09-18-2014, 01:55 PM
PrincessOfPeace's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: York, United Kingdom
Posts: 180
Quote:
Even in the best of scenarios, Scottish independence poses a serious challenge to the existing order of states embodied in the treaty of the European Union.

Europe’s order is built on the idea of stable states and fixed borders that underpin a legal order more than 50 years old, as well as structures such as the EU and Nato.

When Mariano Rajoy, Spain’s prime minister, described Scottish independence as a “torpedo to the vulnerabilities of the EU” he was speaking for many - if not all Europe's leaders.
Scottish referendum: 'Scotland will find few friends and allies in Europe' - Telegraph
Quote:
No good deed goes unpunished. In granting residents of Scotland a referendum on their country’s political future, David Cameron surely thought he was doing a good deed. The Scottish National Party would have to put up or shut up. A Yes vote would be a victory for them. A No vote would be a victory for the Scottish Labour Party bigwigs to whom Mr Cameron entrusted the campaign against independence, in the belief that he – despite being the son of a Scotsman – was less qualified than they to make the case for the Union.

If Mr Cameron gave a thought to his own self-interest, it can only have been a fleeting one. Before he became prime minister, I once suggested to him that a referendum on Scottish independence might be a Machiavellian masterstroke. If it went the wrong way, I suggested, playing devil’s advocate, might not the Tories rule for ever more in the remaining UK?
Scottish referendum: Alone, Scotland will go back to being a failed state - Telegraph
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #482  
Old 09-18-2014, 02:01 PM
Nice Nofret's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Zürich, Switzerland
Posts: 515
your arguments are always alongline Money ... but it's much more at stake; can't you see that?
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #483  
Old 09-18-2014, 02:01 PM
Marengo's Avatar
Administrator
Royal Blogger, TRF Author
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 17,640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc et Pair
We can argue that Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania are more prosperous then they were in the Soviet Union. We can argue that both the Czech Republic and Slovakia have fared better since they split in a "velvet divorce". We can argue that countries as Croatia and Slovenia have reached a far higher standard of living since they broke away from Yugoslavia. In general I am no supporter of separatism but it is hard to find any nation which has fared worser since they split away, leaving some obvious exceptions like Serbia (the backbone state of former Yugoslavia). The argument of Scotland will impoverish without Britain has -so far- not found evidence in other examples in Europe.
The difference being that all these countries formerly were under communist dictatorship. While Scotland is not.
Of course, since the Scots have an ocean full of oil it is unlikely that they will get poorer in the short run. Especially since the populist of the Scotish party has to hand out 'presents' to his voters, as all these populist nutters promise. Still, more fragmentation in Europe is the last thing we need.
__________________
TRF Rules and FAQ
Reply With Quote
  #484  
Old 09-18-2014, 02:11 PM
Muhler's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Eastern Jutland, Denmark
Posts: 8,787
Forgive me for asking a stupid question, (rather than trawling back through the pages), but is a theoretical 50.5 % of the votes really enough to pass the referendum?

I would have imagined that a much larger majority would be necessary in such a crucial matter, say 66 %.
Reply With Quote
  #485  
Old 09-18-2014, 02:19 PM
cepe's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 5,405


To win the referendum, one side needs to secure 50% of the vote, plus one extra vote. That one extra vote is the winning line.
__________________

This precious stone set in the silver sea,......
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England,
Reply With Quote
  #486  
Old 09-18-2014, 03:04 PM
Muhler's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Eastern Jutland, Denmark
Posts: 8,787
Thanks, Cepe.

That's what astound me. Considering that there is no going back, wouldn't such a narrow acceptable margin be more politically divisive among the Scots, regardless of the outcome?
That would mean, again in theory, that if a majority of the voters in say Glasgow voted no, and the national result of the referendum was yes by say 52%, then people of Glasgow would have a good case for seceeding from Scotland and remaining in the rest of UK, wouldn't they?
Reply With Quote
  #487  
Old 09-18-2014, 03:12 PM
cepe's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 5,405
First past the post is how the UK vote and everyone knows that. There have been many instances in the UK parliament where the party with the most seats is not the party with the biggest overall vote.
__________________

This precious stone set in the silver sea,......
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England,
Reply With Quote
  #488  
Old 09-18-2014, 03:14 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: *******, Canada
Posts: 4,412
We are following all of this very closely in Canada. Scots played a big role in shaping the history and culture of the country.
Reply With Quote
  #489  
Old 09-18-2014, 03:16 PM
Jacknch's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Suffolk/Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 4,940
Thank you for bringing this issue up Muhler, because it is something that worries me a great deal. I do not believe that democracy is properly served when voting results mean that ALMOST half the population are not in favour of whatever has been voted in. What about the 49.5% of the remaining population? It is a significant proportion whose voice will have been heard but ignored.
I would have gone beyond a 66% and insisted on 75% then we can be sure that whatever the result is will have properly been the will of the people.
We'll know soon enough, but I can't see how anyone will be able to celebrate whatever the result is if it's such a close end.
__________________
JACK
Reply With Quote
  #490  
Old 09-18-2014, 03:19 PM
PrincessOfPeace's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: York, United Kingdom
Posts: 180
Cameron gave the SNP every concession it wanted, from the date of the referendum to the age of voting (16). Not only does the rest of the United Kingdom not have a say but it takes only 50 percent +1 of Scots to break up the union.
Reply With Quote
  #491  
Old 09-18-2014, 03:33 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is online now
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 2,952
While I find the age of voting a bit odd (do 16 year olds get to vote in everything or just this referendum?), the 50%+1 vote makes sense to me.

If they said that the result had to be 66%, and it came in at 53%, then clearly the majority of Scots are in favour of separation but are at that point literally being forced to stay in the union because their majority isn't big enough. Yes, it would suck for the very sizeable minority if the result comes down that close, but it's still respecting what most people in Scotland want.

Requiring the Yeses to have a 66% vote doesn't respect what the majority of Scotland wants. It's basically saying "unless you can get an overwhelming majority of Scots to vote for this we're going to ignore the results if they don't favour us". In that case, if the results come in at 53% for yes and 47% for no, the Nos have won the vote without actually winning it.
Reply With Quote
  #492  
Old 09-18-2014, 03:41 PM
cepe's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 5,405
I wonder how the Queen is? Will she stay up? Will she find out ahead of the general public? (Mmm? need to see if I can find the answer to the last question). Will she speak to the nation or just quietly come back to BP this week end

Probably a night for 2 gin/dubonnet, rather than the usual one!
__________________

This precious stone set in the silver sea,......
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England,
Reply With Quote
  #493  
Old 09-18-2014, 03:43 PM
Jacknch's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Suffolk/Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 4,940
Well, I can see what you're saying, Ish. But the Nos would be winning nothing as nothing would change in the country and status quo would remain. Nonetheless, it still bugs me what the 49.5% are supposed to do - the workings of democracy has its failings too!
__________________
JACK
Reply With Quote
  #494  
Old 09-18-2014, 03:45 PM
BritishRoyalist's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Somewhere, United States
Posts: 863
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
While I find the age of voting a bit odd (do 16 year olds get to vote in everything or just this referendum?), the 50%+1 vote makes sense to me.

If they said that the result had to be 66%, and it came in at 53%, then clearly the majority of Scots are in favour of separation but are at that point literally being forced to stay in the union because their majority isn't big enough. Yes, it would suck for the very sizeable minority if the result comes down that close, but it's still respecting what most people in Scotland want.

Requiring the Yeses to have a 66% vote doesn't respect what the majority of Scotland wants. It's basically saying "unless you can get an overwhelming majority of Scots to vote for this we're going to ignore the results if they don't favour us". In that case, if the results come in at 53% for yes and 47% for no, the Nos have won the vote without actually winning it.
Well of that the case then The UK will most likely wake up tomorrow still a United Kingdom as if the yes did win i cant see them winning that much percentage of votes. Will be many happy voters on the no side but no doubt there will be some very angry peoples.

I just hope this doesn't turn ugly no matter what happen meaning no civil wars, riots, etc. i would ate to see that happen


Sent from my iPad using The Royals Community mobile app
__________________
Long Live the Queen!! The Real Queen of Hearts!
Reply With Quote
  #495  
Old 09-18-2014, 03:48 PM
Jacknch's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Suffolk/Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 4,940
Quote:
Originally Posted by cepe View Post
I wonder how the Queen is? Will she stay up? Will she find out ahead of the general public? (Mmm? need to see if I can find the answer to the last question). Will she speak to the nation or just quietly come back to BP this week end

Probably a night for 2 gin/dubonnet, rather than the usual one!
Well, I suspect as a woman of habit, she will go about her evening/night time routine as usual, but may be woken during the night if anything of note can be gleaned from the results.
As much as I would like it, I cannot imagine that she would speak to the nation whatever the result is. She might make a glancing comment during her Christmas Speech once the dust has settled.
The Ball tomorrow night will be interesting though - I wonder how the staff and workers at Balmoral who are Scottish will have voted and whether there will be more drinking and dancing whatever the result?!
__________________
JACK
Reply With Quote
  #496  
Old 09-18-2014, 03:49 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: pinner, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,079
A good percentage of the Noes will up sticks and move to England.. IF the Nats win.. {somewhere where they will still 'fit'...}
Reply With Quote
  #497  
Old 09-18-2014, 03:50 PM
PrincessOfPeace's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: York, United Kingdom
Posts: 180
The other thing that I don't like is the disenfranchisement of almost 1 million Scots.
British soldiers born and raised in Scotland but serving in England are not allowed a vote but an American citizen attending school or university in Scotland is allowed a vote.
Reply With Quote
  #498  
Old 09-18-2014, 04:04 PM
Muhler's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Eastern Jutland, Denmark
Posts: 8,787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
While I find the age of voting a bit odd (do 16 year olds get to vote in everything or just this referendum?), the 50%+1 vote makes sense to me.

If they said that the result had to be 66%, and it came in at 53%, then clearly the majority of Scots are in favour of separation but are at that point literally being forced to stay in the union because their majority isn't big enough. Yes, it would suck for the very sizeable minority if the result comes down that close, but it's still respecting what most people in Scotland want.

Requiring the Yeses to have a 66% vote doesn't respect what the majority of Scotland wants. It's basically saying "unless you can get an overwhelming majority of Scots to vote for this we're going to ignore the results if they don't favour us". In that case, if the results come in at 53% for yes and 47% for no, the Nos have won the vote without actually winning it.
I disagree with you, Ish.

The 66 % is to ensure that a very sizeble majority of the population actually do want to go through with whatever but crucial issue they vote for. In this case independence.
It's also to ensure the interests of the loosing side. In this case say 49 % of the voters, who could otherwise become very frustrated since there will be no turning back.
Such frustrations need of course not become violent, but they could result in people leaving Scotland, or at the very least that the no voters in this case would start to vote for those parties and politicians who were most in favour of a no, thus changing the political landscape.
In any case such a large minority would be very vocal, and very troublesome to deal with politically and ultimately the yes side could end up with a political pyrrus victory on their hands, rather than a new refreshing start, which they clearly aim for.

Don't get me wrong, If the Scots want independence they should have it. Personally I would not accept a part of my own country gaining independence based on a 1 % majority. That would be unfair for the loosing side and politically polarizing.
After all, the yes-side can always try again, this time perhaps securing a much more substancial majority.
The no-side only get one chance this way.
In other words: if the yes-side can't win with a large majority, then the project isn't mature yet.
Reply With Quote
  #499  
Old 09-18-2014, 04:11 PM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Christmas Island
Posts: 5,928
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessOfPeace View Post
Cameron gave the SNP every concession it wanted, from the date of the referendum to the age of voting (16). Not only does the rest of the United Kingdom not have a say but it takes only 50 percent +1 of Scots to break up the union.
Not 'of Scots'. It is 50% of all whom are officially registered as a resident of Scotland (so also other nationalities), and have registered themselves as a voter, and who have turned up at the election.
Reply With Quote
  #500  
Old 09-18-2014, 04:14 PM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Christmas Island
Posts: 5,928
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessOfPeace View Post
The other thing that I don't like is the disenfranchisement of almost 1 million Scots.
British soldiers born and raised in Scotland but serving in England are not allowed a vote but an American citizen attending school or university in Scotland is allowed a vote.
Mr Cameron walked with open eyes into Salmond's trap, totally underestimating the whole circus. It was obvious from the very first second on that the thought of Scotland going independence was "utter fantasy" for Cameron and other Westminster politicians. They all agreed with the Referendum Act and all arrangements around. Again a proof of their tunnel vision.

__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
referendums, scotland, scottish independence


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





Popular Tags
ascot 2016 best gown best gown september 2016 best hat best outfit catherine middleton style coup d'etat crown prince haakon crown princess mary crown princess mary fashion crown princess mette-marit current events duchess of cambridge dutch state visit e-mail fashion poll grand duke jean greece journalism kate middleton king abdullah ii king felipe king felipe vi king willem-alexander margrethe ii member introduction monarchy new zealand nobel gala norway november 2016 october 2016 opening of parliament picture of the week prince bernhard prince charles prince joachim princess charlene princess eugenie fashion princess laurentien princess marie princess mary princess mary daytime fashion princess mary fashion princess mary hats queen letizia queen letizia casual outfits queen letizia daytime fashion queen letizia fashion queen letizia style queen mathilde queen mathildes outfits queen maxima queen maxima casual wear queen maxima daytime fashion queen maxima fashion queen maxima hats queen maxima style queen rania royal fashion september 2016 state visit state visit to denmark succession sweden the duchess of cambridge the duchess of cambridge casual wear the duchess of cambridge daytime fashion the duchess of cambridge fashion the duchess of cambridge hats


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:09 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2016
Jelsoft Enterprises