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  #361  
Old 09-14-2014, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nice Nofret View Post
Yes, with excactly the same argument, the Shetlands are contemplating now, that in case of 'YES' they should separate from Scotland .. they can best decide for themselves, what to do with THEIR Oil-Money



So why shouldn't the rich Lombardia separate from Italy? The south of Germany from the less prosperous parts of the country? Why should any rich City / county support with it's money any other part, which, at the moment, isn't doing that well? Why are we paying tax, that other can eat?

... because that's what a society is there for. We stand for each other, we help each other and in times of need, we pay for each other.... and sometimes we are at the recieving end..
Sure, but when a quite substantial part of the Scots do not feel it that way and feel misrepresented in the UK, then one can do two things: ignoring it or take action. At least this Referendum has caused that the Scottish interests have got more attention and Scotland WILL have more powers, no matter the YES or the NO. Without the hardfought efforts by the nationalists, the unionist in Parliament would have continued to snore under their wigs.

Even in paradise-like Switzerland there are discontent sounds. No one would ever expect that. (Discontent amongst German- and French speaking people in the Cantons of Bern and the Jura). At least Switzerland took it serious from the very beginning, whereas the UK seems to have totally underestimated the deep-rooted Scottish feelings.

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  #362  
Old 09-14-2014, 08:20 PM
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On a morning TV show yesterday there was a discussion about the implications of Scottish independence. The Union Jack was mentioned, and the commentators assumed it would change, and that the Australian flag would as well. At that point I found myself yelling at the TV, calling them idiots. There would be no need whatsoever for the Australian flag to change. The Union Jack symbolises our history, not an ongoing relationship with the United Kingdom. Luckily the Australian Flag Act 1953 refers to the Union Jack, not the flag of the United Kingdom. So even if the Union Flag is superseded by something new for use in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, the historic Union Jack on the Australian national flag, and the state flags, remains unaffected. The same can be said for the flags of New Zealand, Tuvalu, the Republic of Fiji and the State of Hawaii.

But I do agree that the Union Flag should change if the referendum succeeds. There are countries, like Russia, that have kept or revived the flag of a previous regime. There are countries, like Australia and New Zealand, whose flags include another national flag as a historic reference. But that is quite different to one member of a former full political union keeping the flag of the now dissolved union. Prior to the separation of Slovakia and Czechia, it was agreed that neither of the two new states would use the flag of Czechoslovakia. Slovakia duly adopted a new distinct flag, but the Czech Republic reneged on the agreement and adopted the flag of the former Czechoslovakia. However, Slovakia is not obviously symbolised on the Czech Republic flag. The blue wedge originally represented Slovakia, Silesia and Moravia, on the white and red flag of Bohemia. But it is now said to represent truth, loyalty and determination.

It might be possible for the remaining United Kingdom to keep the Union Flag, and just claim that the blue background now represents something else (anyone for woad?) Somehow I doubt that would work. Also, a newly independent Scotland might see the continued use of the Union Flag, with its so very obvious Scottish symbolism, as a denial of the dissolution of the union, an arrogant unwillingness to let go.
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  #363  
Old 09-15-2014, 03:53 AM
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Quite an editorial from The Telegraph on HM The Queen's comment after church yesterday...

Queen's warning to Scottish voters ends charade of impartiality - Telegraph
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  #364  
Old 09-15-2014, 04:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunnystar View Post
Quite an editorial from The Telegraph on HM The Queen's comment after church yesterday...

Queen's warning to Scottish voters ends charade of impartiality - Telegraph
Good for Her!!

It's more about short term dreams of cashing in then on a reall wellthought
over future...BP and Lloydds moving their HQ's over to london,..and that's just for starters...Their dream of "independence" might well turn out to be a bubble of sorts..Oh well,sit on the thistle if that's your thing...
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  #365  
Old 09-15-2014, 04:35 AM
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Originally Posted by lucien View Post
Good for Her!!

It's more about short term dreams of cashing in then on a reall wellthought
over future...BP and Lloydds moving their HQ's over to london,..and that's just for starters...Their dream of "independence" might well turn out to be a bubble of sorts..Oh well,sit on the thistle if that's your thing...
I think your post shows underestimation of the feelings of discontent under the Scots. The fact that Mr Salmond, against the unbelievable, massive opposition of all-against-one, has considerable support under the Scots shows that something is rotten in the Union. As I wrote earlier in this thread, the gentlemen and lords in "Westminster" can ignore it and continue to snore under their wigs, they can also take it serious, for once.

The whole panicked and massed deployment by the establishment, the banks and the industries started when the (postal) vote was already under way but the polls suddenly showed the YES-camp in the lead. Suddenly the old-boys-network of the Etonians woked up, scratched under their sweaty wigs, in disbelief that those Scots possibly reject their oh so splendid Union and suddenly Prime Minister Questions is dropped, all agenda's emptied and even Nigel Farage, no Scotsman and no vote, pops up to urge the Scots to YES now but say NO later in the next referendum...



I wish the Scots wisdom. I think that Scottish interests are best managed by the Scots themselves, whether this is in or outside the United Kingdom, is completely up to them.

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  #366  
Old 09-15-2014, 05:48 AM
Aristocracy
 
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Come now Duc et Pair, your imagination is carrying you further into the land of caricature as the vote gets closer. Brave Mr Salmond, standing up to the "unbelievable, massive opposition" from those nasty bullies at Westminster! How selfless of him. Politicians are just politicians; both sides are pushing their agenda for all its worth.

As for the Queen speaking out, I found it interesting how it was reported in various sources. Apparently this is what the Queen said:
Well, I hope people will think very carefully about the future.
Yet when reported, the Queen's passive hope evolved into a full on active intervention. The Queen is said to have pleaded with, warned, urged, asked and cautioned voters to be careful. Not only does she want them to be careful, not only should they be careful, no, they must be careful. It is all getting very emotional.
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  #367  
Old 09-15-2014, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nice Nofret View Post
Yes, with excactly the same argument, the Shetlands are contemplating now, that in case of 'YES' they should separate from Scotland .. they can best decide for themselves, what to do with THEIR Oil-Money



So why shouldn't the rich Lombardia separate from Italy? The south of Germany from the less prosperous parts of the country? Why should any rich City / county support with it's money any other part, which, at the moment, isn't doing that well? Why are we paying tax, that other can eat?

... because that's what a society is there for. We stand for each other, we help each other and in times of need, we pay for each other.... and sometimes we are at the recieving end..
One point I see in favor of the YES vote is that Scotland has for long being an independant state with its own history. Standing with each other can be done in smaller state rather than in big states where a part of the country is required to give her resources to help the other part and in the same time is having a poverty rate which is a shame for every country pretending to be developed.
A Scottish independance would force us to think again about our economical models and it would be a good thing for everyone of us in Europe.
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  #368  
Old 09-15-2014, 06:27 AM
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As this is a royal forum, I think that the title Queen of Scots is a wonderful, ancient and proud title. Yesterday I saw Mr Salmond on BBC 1, in the Andrew Marr Show and he said: "We want to see Her Majesty The Queen as our Queen of the Scots. That is a fantastic title and a fantastic prospect."

I agree with that. It is not that the Queen is toppled of something. Of course there are possible republican understreams, but for so far the chance is greater that Australia or Spain will become a republic than Scotland.
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  #369  
Old 09-15-2014, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunnystar View Post
Quite an editorial from The Telegraph on HM The Queen's comment after church yesterday...

Queen's warning to Scottish voters ends charade of impartiality - Telegraph
The good thing about HM's "think carefully" comment is that it pushed many nationalists on the social networks to drop their act and show their true republican colors. It is clear now that that SNP has no sincere intention to keep the monarchy in an independent Scotland.
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  #370  
Old 09-15-2014, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
The good thing about HM's "think carefully" comment is that it pushed many nationalists on the social networks to drop their act and show their true republican colors. It is clear now that that SNP has no sincere intention to keep the monarchy in an independent Scotland.
In all possible publications, in all debates, again and again is stressed that the SNP wants to have Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth as Queen of Scots and look forward to that. That is the given fact.

How sincere these intentions are is impossible to say. Fact is that the majority of the parliamentarians in Sweden would get rid of the monarchy but are -so far- not pushing for action into that direction. The same with the Flemish separatists which are the biggest fraction in the Belgian Parliament and simply want to get rid of "the Coburgs" to fulfill their republican dream. They are republicans in word and deed, but so far their leader, Mr Bart de Wever, just hangs his mayoral sash with the Belgian tricolore around his waist and serviently welcomes the King and Queen in his city (Antwerp)....

As I wrote earlier in this thread, I actually see an opportunity for the Windsors to establish a direct bond with the Scots, as THEIR King or Queen, head of state of THEIR independent state rather than being representants of an union which has apparently a quite low approval in Scottish society.

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  #371  
Old 09-15-2014, 08:29 AM
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I know our Head of State is the father of our nation and, in the UK, The Queen is the mother of the nation. When they say be careful about certain things, we'd better listen up. I think Her Majesty is right, think carefully before voting.
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  #372  
Old 09-15-2014, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Scottish nationalists have severely underestimated the economic risks of independence, a leading think tank has concluded as it predicted a major black hole in public finances after a Yes vote.

The triple-whammy of declining oil revenues, fleeing financial services and increasing pension costs would see Scottish Government revenues drop more than £13bn after a Yes vote, according to the Centre for Policy Studies (CPS).

The centre-right think tank predicted the Scottish Government would bring in just £50bn in 2015-16 – some £14bn lower than predicted by the Yes campaign.
Scottish nationalists 'severely underestimate the economic risks of independence', says think tank - Telegraph
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  #373  
Old 09-15-2014, 09:01 AM
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All the debate reminds me the referendum who took place in 2005 about the Europa constitution. We were allowed to give our opinion but when the NO began to overpower the YES in the polls, all of suddenly, powerful people woke up and urged us to think twice before voting. It sounded as the mere idea of a referendum had been a concession to give the decision a democratical look and our opinion would not prevail if its didn't match the main opinion in our political class. France voted NO and three years later another vote took place, but only in the Parliament, who of course voted YES. My feeling is that even if Scots will vote for the Independance, it will be purely formal and everything will be done to prevent the scission. And people will wonder why Alex Salmond's party will again rise in the next polls at the next elections.
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  #374  
Old 09-15-2014, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
In all possible publications, in all debates, again and again is stressed that the SNP wants to have Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth as Queen of Scots and look forward to that. That is the given fact.

How sincere these intentions are is impossible to say. Fact is that the majority of the parliamentarians in Sweden would get rid of the monarchy but are -so far- not pushing for action into that direction. The same with the Flemish separatists which are the biggest fraction in the Belgian Parliament and simply want to get rid of "the Coburgs" to fulfill their republican dream. They are republicans in word and deed, but so far their leader, Mr Bart de Wever, just hangs his mayoral sash with the Belgian tricolore around his waist and serviently welcomes the King and Queen in his city (Antwerp)....

As I wrote earlier in this thread, I actually see an opportunity for the Windsors to establish a direct bond with the Scots, as THEIR King or Queen, head of state of THEIR independent state rather than being representants of an union which has apparently a quite low approval in Scottish society.

The fact that 50 % of the Scots are willing to vote for independence surprisingly doesn't necessarily mean that 50 % oppose the union. Most Scots admit that, if devo max were on a three-way ballot, independence would get a much lower support. The reason why the SNP is doing so well is that it managed to sell independence to a large chunk of Labour voters as a proxy for devo max whereas a 'No' vote would mean the 'status quo'.

In a way, that resembles what happened in Quebec in 1995 where many voters were persuaded to vote for independence thinking they were voting for a new form of "sovereign association" with a common currency and common passport. Nationalists usually use this dirty trick !
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  #375  
Old 09-15-2014, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Sancia View Post
All the debate reminds me the referendum who took place in 2005 about the Europa constitution. We were allowed to give our opinion but when the NO began to overpower the YES in the polls, all of suddenly, powerful people woke up and urged us to think twice before voting. It sounded as the mere idea of a referendum had been a concession to give the decision a democratical look and our opinion would not prevail if its didn't match the main opinion in our political class. France voted NO and three years later another vote took place, but only in the Parliament, who of course voted YES. My feeling is that even if Scots will vote for the Independance, it will be purely formal and everything will be done to prevent the scission. And people will wonder why Alex Salmond's party will again rise in the next polls at the next elections.
It is indeed very much a déjà vu from the 2005 EU referendum. When the NO vote began to rise and rise in the polls, suddenly in all possible ways doom and gloom and hell and pestilence was predicted. France voted NON! The Netherlands voted NEE! Shockwaves went to the EU.... two founding-fathers of the EU, two major economies saying NO to the new Constitution... All predicted horrors, the washing away of capital, the rising of prices and interest rates, the prices of houses tumbling down, nothing of all this happened.... Just three years later when Lehman Brothers felt, the worldwide crisis started and this had nothing to do with the referendum.

Yes, as someone who has experienced the EU referedum: it is very much a déjà vu indeed.

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  #376  
Old 09-15-2014, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Scottish patients on the waiting list for vital transplants could be sent to the back of the queue if the country votes for independence.

Department of Health officials today warned that the current system for treatment would have to be completely re-written in the event of a win for the Yes campaign.

This mean patients currently on the waiting list could face an even longer delay for life-saving heart, lung and liver transplants.
Scottish patients needing life-saving transplants could go to the back of the queue if Yes vote wins | Mail Online
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  #377  
Old 09-15-2014, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Mr Cameron warned that Thursday's referendum is a "once and for all" decision as he made a last-ditch trip north to urge voters to save the union.

He said: "On Thursday, Scotland votes, and the future of our country is at stake.

"On Friday, people could be living in a different country, with a different place in the world and a different future ahead of it.

"This is a decision that could break up our family of nations, and rip Scotland from the rest of the UK.

"And we must be very clear. There's no going back from this. No re-run. This is a once-and-for-all decision.
Video: David Cameron: Scottish independence would be a 'painful divorce' - Telegraph
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  #378  
Old 09-15-2014, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sancia View Post
All the debate reminds me the referendum who took place in 2005 about the Europa constitution. We were allowed to give our opinion but when the NO began to overpower the YES in the polls, all of suddenly, powerful people woke up and urged us to think twice before voting. It sounded as the mere idea of a referendum had been a concession to give the decision a democratical look and our opinion would not prevail if its didn't match the main opinion in our political class. France voted NO and three years later another vote took place, but only in the Parliament, who of course voted YES. My feeling is that even if Scots will vote for the Independance, it will be purely formal and everything will be done to prevent the scission. And people will wonder why Alex Salmond's party will again rise in the next polls at the next elections.
You have great points. The hysteria, blackmail, and doomsday prophecies surrounding the referendum are unbelievable.
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  #379  
Old 09-15-2014, 03:46 PM
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If the vote goes No, there has to change something within the UK. You cannot have a Tory (why the hell you English people keep on voting like that is beyond me) government while an entire country does not identify with that side. If Scotland leaves, Tory's will have even more power. That is NOT a good thing.
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  #380  
Old 09-15-2014, 04:17 PM
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Empress Merel... IF you had been paying attention you would know we have a Coalition Government, and that the previous government was a Labour one.. We haven't had a Tory Government since 1997 !
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