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  #341  
Old 09-14-2014, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
70 per cent of English want to keep UK united-
70 per cent of English want to keep UK united - ITV News
Of course they want. They are outpowering the Scots with 10 to 1, the Scottish oil revenues go to "Westminster" and the UK is happy to use Scotland's great waters to house the fleet of Vanguard-class nuclear-powered and nuclear-armed submarines and the Trident nuclear missiles, whether the Scots themselves like it or not.

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  #342  
Old 09-14-2014, 10:33 AM
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NORTH Sea oil giants BP and Shell yesterday warned Scotland’s future is being put at risk by the “highly misleading” forecasts of Alex Salmond’s separatists.

The two companies waded into the independence debate as oil tycoon Sir Ian Wood said that Alex Salmond is gambling the future of Scotland’s children on “fantasy” predictions of oil revenues.

Sir Ian, one of the founding fathers of the offshore industry, warned that a slowdown in production means that North Sea revenues “will simply not be there in 25 to 30 years’ time”.

The former Wood Group chief executive warned that production is likely to fall to as low as 200,000 barrels a day by 2050, compared to the 1.45 million a day produced at present, while tax revenues would reduce over time as companies struggle to replace ageing platforms and pipelines.
He added that Scotland would be better placed to deal with the economic consequences of diminishing North Sea revenues as part of the UK.
Top oil firms back Sir Ian Wood’s warning over £2bn North Sea shortfall | UK | News | Daily Express
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  #343  
Old 09-14-2014, 10:47 AM
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One of the problems regarding North Sea oil is not how much of it is left, but how easy it will be to extract from the sea-bed. The oil is not in some giant great underground pool, it is distributed in pockets and seams here, there and everywhere in the bed-rock and as time goes on, it becomes harder and harder to extract, more time consuming and economically unviable to extract a bit here, a bit there etc. Just like coal and ore, once all the good bits have been mined, what's left is millions of little bits and pieces left available.
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  #344  
Old 09-14-2014, 10:56 AM
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The no campaign has the lead right now and IMO the undecideds will vote No as well. There is just too much at risk to vote Yes if one isn't sure about the future because this is forever. Scotland goes and there is no running back when they can't pay their bills.
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  #345  
Old 09-14-2014, 11:14 AM
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The danger will be when the undecided remain home or the NO-voters remain home because they think "it is all in the pocket" while the YES-voters will have the commitment, zest and thrive to storm the polling stations. Whatever the outcome, Mr Salmond has delivered a formidable fight of one against all. The formidable powers behind the Conservatives, Labour, the LibDems, the multinationals, the newspapers, the banks, all trying to crush one man and one party. It is remarkable how Mr Salmond has, so far, remained on his feet and I feel something like Astérix and Obélix finding their little Gallic village surrrounded by the crushing power of the Roman Empire, the fortresses Babaorum, Aquarium, Laudanum and Petibonum besieging them...

Mr Salmond is the underdog and he plays it brilliantly, chapeau to him, whatever the outcome.
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  #346  
Old 09-14-2014, 11:22 AM
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Royal Central ‏@RoyalCentral 7 mins

RT @phildampier: "The Queen mentioned outside of church that she hopes people think very carefully about the future before voting."
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  #347  
Old 09-14-2014, 11:22 AM
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Jon Williams @WilliamsJon · 26m
The Queen overheard at church: "I hope people will think very carefully about the future." Classic! In saying little, says a lot. #indyref
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  #348  
Old 09-14-2014, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by PrincessOfPeace View Post
The no campaign has the lead right now and IMO the undecideds will vote No as well. There is just too much at risk to vote Yes if one isn't sure about the future because this is forever. Scotland goes and there is no running back when they can't pay their bills.

Personally, I hope the No Campaign wins for your reason that I have highlighted. As I have said in an earlier post of mine upthread, there would also be many things that would need to change if Scotland were to become independent (I was talking about this with some friends the other week, and we also thought that Scotland would need to change their general web address as we think they wouldn't be allowed to have .co.uk anymore).

I found an interesting article from The Daily Mail on the Union Jack:

Quote:
The Union Jack will have to be dumped as Britain’s national flag if Scotland votes to separate, the Government’s official advisers warn today.
One leading expert described Whitehall as ‘terrified’ and ‘woefully unprepared’ for the risk of losing an iconic UK emblem. Another key adviser, Lord West, said it was ‘a nonsense’ to suggest Scotland’s saltire cross could remain part of the design.
The Government’s main advisers on flag policy are the Parliamentary Flags and Heraldry Committee, and the Flag Institute.
Lord West, deputy chairman of the committee, said: ‘In the event of a Yes vote I cannot see how you can save the flag of the United Kingdom.’
You could end up with a flag like this, warns Lord West: Union Jack will have to be dumped as Britain's national flag if Scotland votes to separate | Mail Online
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  #349  
Old 09-14-2014, 12:21 PM
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There is no any reason for the Union Jack to be dumped. Typical Daily Mail trash. The Russians use the flag of the Tsarist Empire, the Tsarist coat-of-arms and the presidential standard with the two-headed Romanov Eagle is derived from the imperial standard.

Pic: http://www.comtourist.com/images/lar...an-flag-01.jpg
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  #350  
Old 09-14-2014, 01:12 PM
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Jon WilliamsAccount verificato ‏@WilliamsJon

The Queen overheard at church: "I hope people will think very carefully about the future." Classic! In saying little, says a lot. #indyref
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  #351  
Old 09-14-2014, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
There is no any reason for the Union Jack to be dumped. Typical Daily Mail trash. The Russians use the flag of the Tsarist Empire, the Tsarist coat-of-arms and the presidential standard with the two-headed Romanov Eagle is derived from the imperial standard.

Pic: http://www.comtourist.com/images/lar...an-flag-01.jpg
It sure would NOT make any sense to keep the Scottish part of the Union Jack if the country says no to the union. I would think England, Wales and Northern Ireland would raise a fuss over that!
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  #352  
Old 09-14-2014, 03:00 PM
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With regard to the Union Flag, the third picture down in the DM report is how the flag would look without the Scottish Saltire. The matter has at the very least already been discussed at government level: a few months ago an official was photographed walking into No 10 Downing Street with supposedly secret documents - the wind caught the first page revealing a picture on the very same flag.
Personally, I wouldn't wish to see the blue go as I like the colour. Maybe the current blue could be modified to a lovely nice marine blue to reflect the seas that surround us!?
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  #353  
Old 09-14-2014, 03:01 PM
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It sure would NOT make any sense to keep the Scottish part of the Union Jack if the country says no to the union. I would think England, Wales and Northern Ireland would raise a fuss over that!
Of course it makes sense. The Union Jack belongs to the United Kingdom. Scotland will possibly break away from the Union. The legal "successor" of the Union can decide to continue with the flag for historical reasons.

These historical reasons are exactly the reason why départements in my country still use the Bourbon fleur-de-lys in their Arms, despite the fact that France is no longer a monarchy.

This is the coat-of-arms of my very own département (Allier) in my very own republican France, look and be surprised: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...bon%29.svg.png

Residents in the Allier (code départementale 3) can use this sticker, with this showing Bourbon fleur-de-lys: http://www.mon-blason.fr/150-212-lar...ourbonnais.jpg on their car license plates.

What to think about Québec in Canada, proudly waving the Bourbon fleur-de-lys, the Crown they once belonged to? See: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...eau_quebec.jpg

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  #354  
Old 09-14-2014, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Of course it makes sense. The Union Jack belongs to the United Kingdom. Scotland will possibly break away from the Union. The legal "successor" of the Union can decide to continue with the flag for historical reasons.

These historical reasons are exactly the reason why départements in my country still use the Bourbon fleur-de-lys in their Arms, despite the fact that France is no longer a monarchy.
imo You can't compare this flag or the russian flag to the Union Jack, the latter is actually a combination of the flags from the separate countries that form the United Kingdom, if one of those countries breaks away from the union you have to at least think about what that'll mean for the combined flag.

If you want to compare it to another flag, take the United States's flag which has a star for each state. In the past if a state joined, a star would be added. If a state would leave the US, surely a star would have to come off the flag...
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  #355  
Old 09-14-2014, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by HereditaryPrincess View Post

It would be interesting to see what happens to the flag if the Scots leave. It would be nice to see Wales added into the flag in some way. Perhaps replace the Saint Andrew's cross with a Saint David one?

The Royal arms and standards would also have to be updated.
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  #356  
Old 09-14-2014, 03:23 PM
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See attached link about the Union Jack. It might be worth keeping the Scottish Saltire within the Union Flag if only because on the union of the crowns.

Union Jack - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is some interesting information under the title "flag speculation after irish independence".
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  #357  
Old 09-14-2014, 03:30 PM
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It would be interesting to see what happens to the flag if the Scots leave. It would be nice to see Wales added into the flag in some way. Perhaps replace the Saint Andrew's cross with a Saint David one?

The Royal arms and standards would also have to be updated.
There is no need to update. Anjou is no longer a Fief of the King of Spain. The Anjou coat-of-arms however is still in the Spanish official coat of arms and flag.

The Republic of Portugal still carries the same coat-of-arms in the flag as it was always used by all Kings since the Reign of Dom Afonso Henriques, King of Portugal (1109-1185).

The Federal Republic of Germany still carries the black Reichsadler which was used since the Holy Roman Empire and all subsequent successors until the day of today.

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  #358  
Old 09-14-2014, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
There is no need to update. Anjou is no longer a Fief of the King of Spain. The Anjou coat-of-arms however is still in the Spanish official coat of arms and flag.



The Republic of Portugal still carries the same coat-of-arms in the flag as it was always used by all Kings since the Reign of Dom Afonso Henriques, King of Portugal (1109-1185).



The Federal Republic of Germany still carries the black Reichsadler which was used since the Holy Roman Empire and all subsequent successors until the day of today.




The arms of the British royals tend to be updated when realms are added or removed. When William III and Mary ruled the Nassau arms were added because of William's Dutch connection. When William died they were removed. When George I came to the throne a Hanoverian element was added, which was removed when Victoria came to the throne and the Hanoverian connection ended. When the British monarchs stopped claiming rule over France the French elements were removed. When Hanover became a kingdom, the Hanoverian element in the British arms changed.

It would be no more appropriate to continue with the current set of arms if Scotland left the union than it was in 1837 to continue with the then current set of arms.
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  #359  
Old 09-14-2014, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Of course they want. They are outpowering the Scots with 10 to 1, the Scottish oil revenues go to "Westminster" and the UK is happy to use Scotland's great waters to house the fleet of Vanguard-class nuclear-powered and nuclear-armed submarines and the Trident nuclear missiles, whether the Scots themselves like it or not.


Yes, with excactly the same argument, the Shetlands are contemplating now, that in case of 'YES' they should separate from Scotland .. they can best decide for themselves, what to do with THEIR Oil-Money



So why shouldn't the rich Lombardia separate from Italy? The south of Germany from the less prosperous parts of the country? Why should any rich City / county support with it's money any other part, which, at the moment, isn't doing that well? Why are we paying tax, that other can eat?

... because that's what a society is there for. We stand for each other, we help each other and in times of need, we pay for each other.... and sometimes we are at the recieving end..
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  #360  
Old 09-14-2014, 04:50 PM
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because that's what a society is there for. We stand for each other, we help each other and in times of need, we pay for each other.... and sometimes we are at the recieving end..
AMEN ! Splitting into ever smaller units flies in the face of all sense, logic and history....
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