Possible Scottish Independence and the Monarchy

[GracieGiraffe]

Now the Union strikes back: Poll puts No campaign in the lead as Scottish separatists suffer a series of hammer blows on Salmond's Black Wednesday | Mail Online

Just glanced at this - really just the headlines and opening first lines which I will quote:

The Royal Bank of Scotland and TSB announced today both will quit the country if voters chose independence as the banks turned their back on Scottish separatists.
In a hammer blow to the Yes campaign RBS, Lloyds, Clydesdale and Edinburgh-based TSB say they will move to England if next Thursday’s referendum ends the 307-year Union.
The series of announcements by big firms admitting they would leave Scotland has put the No camp back in the lead in a new poll.

***

John Lewis and Waitrose caused further damage to the Yes campaign today after it said shoppers in Scotland are likely to face higher prices if the country votes in favour of independence, days after B&Q gave the same warning.

From the little I've read on the matter, I can't believe that anyone in Scotland is seriously considering this.

 

[PrincessOfPeace]

And now we get to the heart of the matter; Scottish oil money. But wasn't it the U.K who paid for the drilling platforms, etc, etc, that made the excavation possible?

Yes it was. All subsidised by the English tax-payer.

 

[ladongas]

I don't mind asking a dumb question, so please be kind...

I understand that the Monarch must remain out of politics, but what about the "speech" she gives at the opening of Parliament? Who writes that speech? Is there a reason why she couldn't be given another speech to read at this crucial moment? Surely that would be considered as part of her right to warn. And if this has already been asked and answered, I have been traveling and unable to keep up. Thanks.

 

[muriel]

And now we get to the heart of the matter; Scottish oil money. But wasn't it the U.K who paid for the drilling platforms, etc, etc, that made the excavation possible?

Qyuite right. and not long to go before the oil runs out!

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I understand that the Monarch must remain out of politics, but what about the "speech" she gives at the opening of Parliament? Who writes that speech? Is there a reason why she couldn't be given another speech to read at this crucial moment? Surely that would be considered as part of her right to warn. And if this has already been asked and answered, I have been traveling and unable to keep up. Thanks.

The Queen's Speech is from A to Z written by the Government and expresses the view of the Government and not from the Queen.

The Queen has nothing to gain by speaking out. When the vote is NO, she will remain Queen of the United Kingdom as she is at present. When the vote is YES, she will have another throne added, as Queen of Scots.

With choosing for the NO-camp, she will infuriate roughly half of the Scots. Requesting the Queen to speak out for the NO-camp and taking a stance against the YES-camp is the most ill-advised possible recommendation ever made to Her Majesty.

 

[PrincessOfPeace]

David Cameron was facing an English backlash at Westminster last night over the rush to hand Scotland sweeping new powers.

The Prime Minister yesterday confirmed that Scotland would get ‘major new powers over tax, spending and welfare’ if it voted No to independence next week.
Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg are also pledging a major transfer of powers in a last-ditch bid to persuade Scots to keep the UK together

But the move provoked alarm among English MPs, who last night warned it would be ‘untenable’ for Scotland to be handed new powers without major reform of its voting rights at Westminster and generous funding settlement.

Former Tory Cabinet minister John Redwood said ministers now needed to answer the question: ‘Who speaks for England?’

Speaking in the Commons, Mr Redwood said England ‘needs a voice’ in any negotiation about the future balance of the Union.

Questions raised over David Cameron's pledges on tax and spending | Mail Online

 

[PrincessOfPeace]

Alex Salmond today launched an extraordinary rant at the BBC after the broadcaster reported how even the Royal Bank of Scotland planned to relocate to England in the event of independence.
In a bizarre press conference he launched a series of petulant attacks on the BBC, Westminster leaders and the Australian prime minister.
And he revealed he has called for an official inquiry into the Treasury's 'deliberate attempt to cause uncertainty in the financial markets' by leaking details of RBS's fears about the break up of the Union.

Alex Salmond rants at BBC after RBS says it will quit after 'Yes' vote | Mail Online

 

[Roslyn]

Oooh! Things are getting nasty over there!

 

[GracieGiraffe]

Higher costs, companies like the Royal Bank of Scotland leaving Scotland... were the ramifications of this schism thought out at all by those wanting independence?

Salmond's rant almost reminds of Sarah Palin's disastrous interview with Katie Couric, which I believe marked a turning point in that campaign.

 

[Roslyn]

Higher costs, companies like the Royal Bank of Scotland leaving Scotland... were the ramifications of this schism thought out at all by those wanting independence?

Salmond's rant almost reminds of Sarah Palin's disastrous interview with Katie Couric, which I believe marked a turning point in that campaign.

I get the impression that no-one on the "no" side thought there was a serious chance of the "yes" team winning, and once it seemed that was indeed a possibility they have resorted to threats which have drawn attention to issues that were previously glossed over or ignored by the "yes" side.

 

[cepe]

I get the impression that no-one on the "no" side thought there was a serious chance of the "yes" team winning, and once it seemed that was indeed a possibility they have resorted to threats which have drawn attention to issues that were previously glossed over or ignored by the "yes" side.

They are not threats. alex Salmond has equivocated on major issues. He has said that Scotland will have the £ even though the BoE has repeatedly said it will not happen. Therefore He needs a Bank of England equivalent with sufficient reserves to cover all potential risk. He hasn't answered this question.

It isnt a threat, its a fact. The BoE (which will spk for UK without Scotland) cannot guarantee the debts and management of a foreign country (Scotland) unless that country accepts the financial decisions of the UK. Where is the independence in that?

Salmond has assumed Uk is bluffing. It isnt.

Ive said that I want UK to remain but I will respect their decision. I still feel like that. but I am being told by individuals that they are already moving their businesses.

today we made arrangements to move our savings out of a Scotland based bank.

Its all we have and it needs to be safe.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Cepe - my friends' families are doing the same thing - moving every penny they have to English banks and out of Scottish ones as well as arranging their affairs to be operating in England or Wales as they are fearful of what will happen if it is a Yes vote.

 

[COUNTESS]

This is all very interesting. Yes, there are ramifications to this, so the Scots will have to weigh their wants and needs.

 

[GracieGiraffe]

So now people are making runs on the bank (can't blame them) and it's the Scottish banks suffering.

Talk about Salmond's Folly.

 

[SElizabeth]

I have been reading this thread and I will admit that I know very little about the economics of this situation. My personal reason for wanting Scotland to stay is that part of the world is where some of my family are from and the rest from Ireland. For history's sake I really hope it doesn't happen, now who is the Alex whatever his last name is? Why is he trying to break up the union? What does he hope to gain from it? Does he want to be president of Scotland or what? There has to be a real hard reason for wanting to do not just because he thinks it would be in the best interest of Scotland...........reasons? money in his bank account? power in governing Scotland?
I can't see it happening, Scotland will fall apart if this happens, and I think now it seems there is panic setting in...........Oh the foolishness of some men who think they know what is best for everyone else at the expense of everyone else while they don't pay the price............

 

[BritishRoyalist]

'No' campaign lead at 4 in Scottish referendum

 

[Ish]

I have been reading this thread and I will admit that I know very little about the economics of this situation. My personal reason for wanting Scotland to stay is that part of the world is where some of my family are from and the rest from Ireland. For history's sake I really hope it doesn't happen, now who is the Alex whatever his last name is? Why is he trying to break up the union? What does he hope to gain from it? Does he want to be president of Scotland or what? There has to be a real hard reason for wanting to do not just because he thinks it would be in the best interest of Scotland...........reasons? money in his bank account? power in governing Scotland?
I can't see it happening, Scotland will fall apart if this happens, and I think now it seems there is panic setting in...........Oh the foolishness of some men who think they know what is best for everyone else at the expense of everyone else while they don't pay the price............

Alex Salmond is the First Minister of Scotland. Basically he's the top guy in the local Scottish government.

He is also the leader of the Scottish National Party, which is the party that's in power in Scotland. SNP is in favour of an independent Scotland but officially SNP says it isn't a republican party.

What the referendum is pushing for is for Scotland to be an independent country, comparable to Canada or Australia - still retaining the Queen and a Westminster style government, but not a part of the UK.

As such, if Scotland were to gain its independence then the leader of the Scottish government would be the Prime Minister, not the President.

In order for Scotland to have a president it would have to become a republic. This referendum is not an attempt to make Scotland a republic, although if independence were to occur then it could be the first step towards becoming a republic. I don't know what the republican movement is like within Scotland, but I wouldn't necessarily rush to compare it to Ireland (whose independence was the first step to republic) or any of the other realms.

Ireland had a long history of being conquered and oppressed by England/Britain. The story of English colonialism begins in Ireland in the 13th century. They were never in any way equals within their union and the monarchy was always a foreign oppressor. While there were times when the English or British were foreign oppressors in Scotland, it's not comparable in the same way. Further there is a considerable history of monarchy within Scotland - one that goes back as long as the English one does - and the union occurred because the crowns merged, not an actual impression (it remained by force, but that's not how it started). Queen Elizabeth II is as much a descendant of Kenneth I as she is a descendant of Alfred the Great.

 

[SElizabeth]

Thank you so very much for the history lesson. Being of Scottish heritage I have a grown son who is in love with Scotland and wants to move there like *right this minute* and he has more books on Scotland then the public library here. He thinks this is horrible and is always telling me I should learn more about Scotland and now I think he is right.

I think in what I have read that this would have a huge economic impact on the people if this went through. In knowing the human nature as it is, I wonder just how many people have really thought this out......the way of life would change over night and would effect all the people, I look at this vote like here in the US when it's election time.......what a laugh it is, so many people young and old both, vote the way of their family without even looking at the person running for office, or the way of friends or who is the most handsome(yes my cousin did), or whatever. People need to really study the pros and cons of this vote and with the back and forth and ups and downs that I have read about, this isn't being done. This Alex sounds like to me, someone who wants power and to be the number one man in the government, I question his motives and would love to see his bank accounts for money always talks and people tell lies to get your vote as this happens all the time here.
Just wishing that it's a no vote and hope the people really learn what is really going on before it's too late.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Mr Salmond has a point. 85% of the shares of RBS are in hands of.... the UK Government. When HM's Treasury has urged the Board of RBS to speak out then this is indeed playing nasty and not from the SNP side.

Now major companies are threatening that the costs of living will rise, as well the interest rates, in case of an independence. It is interesting too see that the already independent neighbour of the Scots, which is Ireland, has lower costs of living ánd lower interest rates than the UK... Of course Ireland is helped by being part of the giant Eurozone which works in Ireland's advantage but nasty games are played here.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I have been reading this thread and I will admit that I know very little about the economics of this situation. My personal reason for wanting Scotland to stay is that part of the world is where some of my family are from and the rest from Ireland. For history's sake I really hope it doesn't happen, now who is the Alex whatever his last name is? Why is he trying to break up the union? What does he hope to gain from it? Does he want to be president of Scotland or what? There has to be a real hard reason for wanting to do not just because he thinks it would be in the best interest of Scotland...........reasons? money in his bank account? power in governing Scotland?
I can't see it happening, Scotland will fall apart if this happens, and I think now it seems there is panic setting in...........Oh the foolishness of some men who think they know what is best for everyone else at the expense of everyone else while they don't pay the price............

"Now, who is the Alex whatever his last name is?"
His name is Mr Alex Salmond and he is now serving as First Minister, in his second consecutive term. His party has won the last Scottish Elections by a landslide and emerged with an overall majority. This means that in legal, free and democratic elections the Scots have deliberately and out of free will chosen his party and his ideas.

"Why is he trying to break up the union?"
Mr Alex Salmond believes that the Scottish interests are best managed by the Scots themselves. To illustrate this he often gives the example of the current Government, dominated by the Conservatives which has only one Conservative MP representing a Scottish constituency. Mr Salmond likes to stress that the Scots are always outnumbered one to ten, whatever the Scots will vote for in any UK General Election.

"Does he want to be president of Scotland or what?"
No. Mr Alex Salmond wants Scotland to be an independent nation with Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth as Queen of Scots.

Instead of blaming everything on Mr Salmond, the unionist should think and ask themselves how it is possible that their Union is apparently so disliked that all possible political leaders, multinationals, businesses and even celebrities have to come out in full force to avoid a dramatic break-up. Instead of mocking the SNP and depicting Mr Salmond as a madman, the Unionists should think: "Hey... the nationalist desire finds quite a resonance in Scottish society, what is it that the Union is so under threat, isn't it time to take it seriously?"

 

[MARG]

I get the impression that no-one on the "no" side thought there was a serious chance of the "yes" team winning, and once it seemed that was indeed a possibility they have resorted to threats which have drawn attention to issues that were previously glossed over or ignored by the "yes" side.

They are not threats. alex Salmond has equivocated on major issues. He has said that Scotland will have the £ even though the BoE has repeatedly said it will not happen. Therefore He needs a Bank of England equivalent with sufficient reserves to cover all potential risk. He hasn't answered this question.

It isnt a threat, its a fact. The BoE (which will spk for UK without Scotland) cannot guarantee the debts and management of a foreign country (Scotland) unless that country accepts the financial decisions of the UK. Where is the independence in that?

Salmond has assumed Uk is bluffing. It isnt.

Ive said that I want UK to remain but I will respect their decision. I still feel like that. but I am being told by individuals that they are already moving their businesses.

today we made arrangements to move our savings out of a Scotland based bank.

Its all we have and it needs to be safe.

IMHO I believe the UK didn't really think this was a "Real" option. That there would be a referendum, the No's would win and everything would stay the same. A lot of very educated politicians, on both sides, took things for granted. In essence they just plain didn't do their homework. People are confused about the effect it will have on their familes and their future. And Alex Salmond and David Cameron both head governments that didn't bother to really do their homework.

However, with some very sharp politicing it is suddenly looking as though it could actually be a "Real" threat and banks and businesses are now forced to look at the impact of operating in what will be a "Foreign Country".

How does tax in the UK impact on firms that operate in a foreign country? Do each and every firm that operates throughout the UK actually want to be dealing with foreign government and a whole new set of commercial law that is about to slam into them. Do they want to deal with Scottish tax as well as UK tax? Will a supermarket in one town be paying diffent rates in two towns, one each side of an invisible divide.

What about immigration, will you need passports since it would be travel to and from a foreign country. What if you live in the UK but work in another country just up the road? What about health, pensions, education, etc. The military have some very succinct, if somewhat colourful expressions to discribe the current situation: SNAFU, FUBAR and the ever faithfully discriptive 'Charley Foxtrot'.

Suddenly it is a real game changer and because these matters have not been seriously addressed to the satisfaction of the financial sector we hear the RBS will shut it's Scottish banks, and at ground level, firms and people moving their money and some even preparing to "return to the UK" should the vote be 'Yes'.

It's turned into an angry and spiteful mess, regardless of what the politicians are saying, what is happening at ground level with families, workplaces, even church congregations, divided is doing far more harm to the people that live in Scotland. Makes one think of Mark 3:25: If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

Whichever way the vote goes now, the collateral damage will not just fade away. The breach will not be healed, at least not any time soon.

 

[PrincessOfPeace]

This was meant to be the day Alex Salmond showed off his statesmanlike qualities to the world.
But instead of meeting the founding father of a brave new nation, the world’s media came to his grandly-named ‘international press conference’ to find a peevish man bristling with indignation over the parochial details of a very inconvenient truth.
For the grandest bank in Scotland had just announced it would pack up the boardroom and move its HQ to London if Scots vote for independence next week.

Peevish and bristling, Salmond exploded at man from the Beeb by ROBERT HARDMAN | Mail Online

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

[....]
Suddenly it is a real game changer and because these matters have not been seriously addressed to the satisfaction of the financial sector we hear the RBS will shut it's Scottish banks, and at ground level, firms and people moving their money and some even preparing to "return to the UK" should the vote be 'Yes'. [....]

The RBS and other banks are not threathening to shut their Scottish banks. They are threathening to remove their headquarters out of Scotland, which is really not the same. RBS "has" to say that since it is for 85% owned by the UK Government and as we know they are throwing all and everything in the battle to let the Union survive.

My own country (France), the Netherlands and Ireland faced the same threat. When they would vote against an European Constitution, the banks would leave, the industries would move, the prices would rise, the financial markets would downgrade causing interests to rise. Anyway: France, the Netherlands and Ireland voted against the European Constitution. Nothing happened, no any multinational, bank or insurance company has left. The interests rates did not rise. The prices stayed exactly the same. The people in the EU hear and read these threats uttered to Scotland and think: "Been there before, heard that before"...



http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...cotland-in-what-a-yes-vote-means-9727596.html

 

[PrincessOfPeace]

The former deputy leader of the Scottish nationalists has threatened a 'day of reckoning' for businesses speaking out against independence.
SNP grandee Jim Sillars lashed out after a host of banks, finance firms, supermarkets and retail giants warned about the dangers of separation.

The 'Yes' to independence campaign's economic case for independence was further damaged after one of Britain's most influential industrialists warned that Scotland’s economy could be damaged for a decade if it votes for independence.
Sir Mike Rake, chairman of the BT Group and leading figure in Barclays, said a ‘Yes’ vote would ‘inevitably’ cause a slowdown which he claimed could ‘easily’ last 10 years.

Scotland could face TEN YEAR economic slowdown after independence | Mail Online

 

[MARG]

The RBS and other banks are not threathening to shut their Scottish banks. They are threathening to remove their headquarters out of Scotland, which is really not the same. RBS "has" to say that since it is for 85% owned by the UK Government and as we know they are throwing all and everything in the battle to let the Union survive.

My own country (France), the Netherlands and Ireland faced the same threat. When they would vote against an European Constitution, the banks would leave, the industries would move, the prices would rise, the financial markets would downgrade causing interests to rise. Anyway: France, the Netherlands and Ireland voted against the European Constitution. Nothing happened, no any multinational, bank or insurance company has left. The interests rates did not rise. The prices stayed exactly the same. The people in the EU hear and read these threats uttered to Scotland and think: "Been there before, heard that before"...



Scottish independence: Ireland since 1919 is a lesson for Scotland in what a Yes vote means - Comment - Voices - The Independent

I am aware the bank branches will still be there and perhaps I wasn't not as clear about what it means, but I also know, when my Provincial bank was swallowed by a National bank things changed but when it was taken over by an Australian Bank, decisions are now made "across the ditch" in another country, namely Australia. We might have an awful lot in common with them but I still live in New Zealand and our concerns are secondary.

Moving the "Headquarters" of the RBS means it will be in another country. That is the point I was trying to make. And believe me . . . it matters!

It's nice that France is able to make it's own decisions but you are missing the point. At this time Scotland is part of the United Kingdom, not a foreign country, and what you are talking about is not in any way, shape or form, the same.

Suddenly there is a landslide of "consequences" not "threats". I find it easy to believe the Royal mail, which delivers under a ‘universal service obligation’ and so has fixed mail prices, may not even exist in a new Scotland let alone continue to subsidise remote areas. Just another little consequence.

There are so many "institutions" both big and small that are going to have to re-evaluate the way they do business.

Will Scotland offer lower taxes to lure industry? Will the UK look at 'export' incentives, or will it cost more to export to Scotland? These are all grass roots type of things that are not, in and of themselves, political, but the affect the way we live our day to day lives.

If nothing else, it has brought the inequalities of the UK into share focus. How the taxepayers of Enland Wales and Northern Ireland are subsidising Scotland with billions and yet their schools and elderly enjoy subsidies that the people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland could only dream of.

Regardless of how the vote goes, things are definitely going to change within the UK.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Funny that you worry about Royal Mail and who might bring the post to Scotland. That Royal Mail is for sale and will be bought by.... Deutsche Post (!)... Citibank, Deutsche Bank, Santander, AIB (Allied Irish Bank) or even unexpected giants as HSBC and Standard Chartered are in foreign hands.

This leads to the question: who destroyed Britain? Will this be Mr Salmond? No! It was the Westminster good-old-boys-network who completely destroyed the backbone of what once was Britain and are facing a possible end of the very same Britain. Who did destroy British Rail? British Telecom? British Aerospace? Britoil? British Gas? British Steel? British Airways? British Coal? Powergen? National Power? British Leyland and other automotive industries? Who is going to destroy the Royal Mail even?

Where other nation states as France and Germany see it as their very core interest to hold and keep essential infrastructure and industries in own hands, "Westminster" itself has caused an implosion of what once was so great in Great Britain. Now Mr Salmond is the ultimate bad guy and targeted by "Westminster" but anyone knows Great Britian has been destroyed already.

 

[wyevale]

The Republic of Ireland seems ver expensive when I visit there, but these are the official figures

Consumer Prices in Ireland are 2.44% higher than in United Kingdom Consumer Prices Including Rent in Ireland are 0.37% lower than in United Kingdom Rent Prices in Ireland are 7.33% lower than in United Kingdom Restaurant Prices in Ireland are 0.54% higher than in United Kingdom Groceries Prices in Ireland are 4.19% higher than in United Kingdom

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Is that measured by Irish people being paid in Euro and buying goods with Euro or is that measured by UK citizens who have to exchange Pounds against Euros which always causes everything becoming expensive? For British citizens the EU seems very expensive because they see prices, for an example 100 Euro and make it 100 Pounds in their head but in reality it is around 80 Pounds.

The Irish have a GDP per capita of 43,304 US $ while the UK citizens enjoy a considerably lower GDP per capita of 36,209 US $ (World Development Indicators database, World Bank. Database updated on 1 July 2014. Accessed on 2 July 2014.) In general the costs of living in Ireland are somewhat higher than in the UK (Eurozone prices) but the differences are all within a small margin. It is not all doom and gloom since Ireland decided to say farewell to the Queen anyway, which is what the Unionists try to scare the Scots with. (And the Irish never had the pleasure of a giant oil bubble offshore).

 

[AdmirerUS]

I thank you all for how much I have learned in this Thread!
One thing I learned is how many of you from the UK, but not Scotland, have strong opinions on the referendum. A poll in the DM today shows 56% of you think you should have a say in the vote and having read what you have posted, I understand what's behind that opinion. Thanks.

 

[Jacknch]

Funny that you worry about Royal Mail and who might bring the post to Scotland. That Royal Mail is for sale and will be bought by.... Deutsche Post (!)... Citibank, Deutsche Bank, Santander, AIB (Allied Irish Bank) or even unexpected giants as HSBC and Standard Chartered are in foreign hands.

This leads to the question: who destroyed Britain? Will this be Mr Salmond? No! It was the Westminster good-old-boys-network who completely destroyed the backbone of what once was Britain and are facing a possible end of the very same Britain. Who did destroy British Rail? British Telecom? British Aerospace? Britoil? British Gas? British Steel? British Airways? British Coal? Powergen? National Power? British Leyland and other automotive industries? Who is going to destroy the Royal Mail even?

Where other nation states as France and Germany see it as their very core interest to hold and keep essential infrastructure and industries in own hands, "Westminster" itself has caused an implosion of what once was so great in Great Britain. Now Mr Salmond is the ultimate bad guy and targeted by "Westminster" but anyone knows Great Britian has been destroyed already.

I cannot help but agree with practically everything you say here! So many national industries were either shut down or privatised without thinking of the medium to long term consequences or having any regard whatsoever to those most affected.

It angers me greatly that only on the last days before the Scottish referendum, Westminster is cobbling together a Devo-max package in the event of a "no" vote, whereas this should have been done years ago! It is a childish, petulant panic on behalf of the government just as it is with all the hot air that comes from the Scottish First Minister.

If ever there was a time for the Queen to handbag everyone it is this!