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  #21  
Old 07-05-2007, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Laura Elizabeth View Post
This area confuses me. How can you be involved in conservation of land and animals and be a hunter at the same time? Providing safe havens for animals to mature in just to allow others to shoot them? It's beyond me. What am I missing here?
I
IMO conservation means to protect habitat from shrinking further than it already has, it doesn't have to have anything to do with providing a non lethal haven for wildlife. I know several hunters & fishermen who are strong conservationists.
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  #22  
Old 07-05-2007, 04:39 PM
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I
IMO conservation means to protect habitat from shrinking further than it already has, it doesn't have to have anything to do with providing a non lethal haven for wildlife. I know several hunters & fishermen who are strong conservationists.
Also important to note is that the birds shot in a shooting party, for example at Sandringham, are subject to the guidelines, which will be different each season and based on the surplus breeding in the reserve. For example, they might have a cap of 300 birds they can shoot. This ensures the habitat does not become overcrowded, because too much in the habitat is harmful, and the regulations on the breeding are strict. Hence, the "biodiversity" argument stressed by the conservationists.
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  #23  
Old 07-05-2007, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by CasiraghiTrio View Post
Also important to note is that the birds shot in a shooting party, for example at Sandringham, are subject to the guidelines, which will be different each season and based on the surplus breeding in the reserve. For example, they might have a cap of 300 birds they can shoot. This ensures the habitat does not become overcrowded, because too much in the habitat is harmful, and the regulations on the breeding are strict. Hence, the "biodiversity" argument stressed by the conservationists.
Unfortunately that sounds as if it came straight from BASC's website and IMO, it is wrong. There is no 'cap' on the amount of birds bred, solely for people to 'enjoy' shooting. The only cap is that if they only breed and release 2000 birds, then they have a cap of 2000 birds and if 2200 are shot, that is unfortunate and undeclared. If they left the birds alone, instead of breeding them to shoot, natural predators would take them and keep the natural numbers down, but then pheasants are not indegenius to the UK. Biodiversity is wonderful, if it is natural, but breeding to kill, can hardly be called that.

Animal Aid: Fox shot and beaten at Sandringham

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it balances out the natural habitat, purging the harmful surpluses of game, and it provides incentive and raises money for the natural habitat to be preserved
It provides money for the landowners to continue to live in the style they are accustomed to, that is why there are so many shooting estates in the UK. It has nothing to do with conserving the countryside, just conserving the estates ability to make extra money from it. While I agree with culling of deer when needed, I think it is wrong for shooting estates to allow novices and those that think they can shoot to aim at anything.
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Game Conservancy does do conservation work. They say on their site they support field sports
Apart from advising estate owners on how to have a successful breeding year or environment, what do they do to conserve the countyside for wild birds, small mammals, badgers, raptors?

Being an environmentalist is not related to being a coservationist, the two are not joined at the hip.
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  #24  
Old 07-05-2007, 07:31 PM
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Unfortunately that sounds as if it came straight from BASC's website and IMO, it is wrong. There is no 'cap' on the amount of birds bred, solely for people to 'enjoy' shooting. The only cap is that if they only breed and release 2000 birds, then they have a cap of 2000 birds and if 2200 are shot, that is unfortunate and undeclared. If they left the birds alone, instead of breeding them to shoot, natural predators would take them and keep the natural numbers down, but then pheasants are not indegenius to the UK. Biodiversity is wonderful, if it is natural, but breeding to kill, can hardly be called that.

Animal Aid: Fox shot and beaten at Sandringham
You're right about there being no 'cap' on breeding. I didn't say this. There is a 'cap' that's based on breeding, because the amount bred determines the cap, the officially allowable amount that are for shooting. The estates are supposed to follow this, but I'm sure you are right that many, maybe most, do not follow that. I imagine it is easy to shoot as many they like and no one would know it or care to press the issue.

What is your belief about fox hunting? Is it the same with foxes being bred for the hunts? 'Officially', the Countryside Alliance will say things like, Oh, these foxes would be homeless and strays otherwise, tearing up the farms and like that? But is this the case, or are/were (before the ban) the foxes bred for the hunt?
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  #25  
Old 07-06-2007, 04:35 AM
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Originally Posted by BMC View Post
IMO conservation means to protect habitat from shrinking further than it already has, it doesn't have to have anything to do with providing a non lethal haven for wildlife. I know several hunters & fishermen who are strong conservationists.
Conservation is planned management of a natural resource to prevent exploitation, destruction, or neglect. While some take this to preserve habitat ideal for the breeding and slaughter of deer, grouse, ptarmigan, foxes etc, conservation in the sense interpreted by many is the conservation of natural habitats. The later is to encourage the natural bio diversity of plants, animals and birds.

There are a number of schemes available to landowners that encourage natural planting to encourage bio diversity, the cardinal rule is that there is no shooting/hunting or fishing allowed in order to qualify - that is conservation.

The Game Conservancy Trust for instance is dedicated solely to maintain the habitat in an area for successful stalking or game bird shooting, We often dine with some of the regional secretaries, which makes for lively conversation!

Many of the UK 'conservation' charities that CT has cited as societies supported by senior royals are not about conservation as a lot of people understand it, but about conserving a blood sports industry. Game conservancy is exactly what it says, to conserve game in an area, in order to kill it for pleasure.

It just sounds so much 'cleaner' to call it game conservation or field sport
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Old 07-06-2007, 05:05 AM
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Originally Posted by CasiraghiTrio View Post
What is your belief about fox hunting? Is it the same with foxes being bred for the hunts? 'Officially', the Countryside Alliance will say things like, Oh, these foxes would be homeless and strays otherwise, tearing up the farms and like that? But is this the case, or are/were (before the ban) the foxes bred for the hunt?
Foxes have never been bred for release for hunting, but it was not unknown for them to be trapped and released prior to a hunt years ago. They do the same with the hares for coursing, the difference is that they erect closed wire around the fields, so that the hares have no chance to escape. Kennel men and hunt employees will check the area intended for the hunt and stop up any bolt holes they find.

The Countryside Alliance are as bad as the Animal Liberation Army in their propaganda. We have never allowed fox hunting on our land and have never been bothered by homeless or stray foxes tearing anything up. Nature is wonderful, if an area cannot support a large amount of foxes, they only seem to breed one pup in a litter, if there is not enough food in the area, they die. That's why many foxes have moved to the cities, so much food rubbish about. A lot of landowners don't like the fox, because he will dig under and get into their game bird pens and kill as many as he can, mainly in the hope of going back for more. The farm over from us has free range chickens and because he is a good farmer, he has proper fencing and takes them in at night.
The Countryside Alliance also said 1000's of hounds and horses would have to be put down, farriers would go out of business etc, I would have thought the majority of people, like me, keep horses to ride out on, not just use to hunt with.
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  #27  
Old 07-06-2007, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
Foxes have never been bred for release for hunting, but it was not unknown for them to be trapped and released prior to a hunt years ago. They do the same with the hares for coursing, the difference is that they erect closed wire around the fields, so that the hares have no chance to escape. Kennel men and hunt employees will check the area intended for the hunt and stop up any bolt holes they find.

The Countryside Alliance are as bad as the Animal Liberation Army in their propaganda. We have never allowed fox hunting on our land and have never been bothered by homeless or stray foxes tearing anything up. Nature is wonderful, if an area cannot support a large amount of foxes, they only seem to breed one pup in a litter, if there is not enough food in the area, they die. That's why many foxes have moved to the cities, so much food rubbish about. A lot of landowners don't like the fox, because he will dig under and get into their game bird pens and kill as many as he can, mainly in the hope of going back for more. The farm over from us has free range chickens and because he is a good farmer, he has proper fencing and takes them in at night.
The Countryside Alliance also said 1000's of hounds and horses would have to be put down, farriers would go out of business etc, I would have thought the majority of people, like me, keep horses to ride out on, not just use to hunt with.
Here in the US we have a major problem with coyotes coming into the cities because their natural habitat is destroyed. This is why some groups have made it a sport of chasing and killing coyotes, as traditionally with the fox hunts. I was never a supporter of fox hunts or coyote hunts anymore than of horse slaughter (the trend among horse breeders to put horses down when they can't race anymore). These are hideous things.

What I do belief is good, however, is what the royal family has done with their estates to create a natural habitat for red deer and grouse, and at Sandringham for pheasant and partridge. I agree with Skydragon that to breed to kill is horrible, and I hope the royal family practice what they preach and do not kill beyond what is necessary to preserve the healthy balance.
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