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  #161  
Old 07-29-2005, 12:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frothy
Excuse me Tiparin, but after providing some proof of The Duke of York's title from the BRF's own website I did say I was done. FWIW, I do agree that the topic's done now (the Duke of York, that is. Precedence as such still interests me).

I want to say that I think branchq is a fount of knowledge, in general, and have enjoyed reading his/her posts both before de-lurking and after.
I'm sorry Frothy and Branchq. It seemed you both were getting quite annoyed. It seemed like a game of "one-upmanship". If it wasn't, I am sorry. That was the way it was coming across to me. My apologies.
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  #162  
Old 07-29-2005, 01:30 AM
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What's next?

OK, we have covered The Duke of York, agree that Camilla has been hard-done-by in regard to Court Precedence, and attempted to explain what little (it seems) we know and understand of what goes on behind the Palace walls. So what's the next topic?

How did those members of the extended Royal Family feel when they were not only rudely stripped of their German Princely titles in 1917, but lost their styles of Serene Highness as well? And to add insult to injury they were demoted in the pecking order to join the ranks of the mere Peerage.

And why the inconsistency of allowing Marie Louise and Helena Victoria of Schleswig-Holstein to remain Princesses, with the style of Highness?
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  #163  
Old 07-29-2005, 01:47 AM
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The Queen's Favour

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frothy
Re: private precedence.
This is another example of what I mean by messed up titles and precedence. Under what universe does it make sense for Camilla to rank before wives of the princes but after the blood princesses? .
How about another way of looking at Court Precedence...
The Queen has decided that in her household her only daughter The Princess Royal and the recently widowed, dutiful and highly respected Princess Alexandra will be shown not just "due deference", but extra deference (or honour or favour) within the family. This is The Queen's wish, this is how things will be ordered, and within the Royal Family these rules of precedence will be followed. As simple as that.
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  #164  
Old 07-29-2005, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren
How did those members of the extended Royal Family feel when they were not only rudely stripped of their German Princely titles in 1917, but lost their styles of Serene Highness as well? And to add insult to injury they were demoted in the pecking order to join the ranks of the mere Peerage.

And why the inconsistency of allowing Marie Louise and Helena Victoria of Schleswig-Holstein to remain Princesses, with the style of Highness?
.
Well, they weren't actually stripped of their titles by George V since their German princely and ducal styles would still apply if they were living in Germany. The effect was to forbid his relatives who spent all their lives in England from using their German courtesy titles and assuming new peerages or styles as granted by the King.

As male-line granddaughters of the Duke of Schleswig-Holstein and Queen Victoria, Princesses Helena Victoria and Marie Louise were styled Serene Highness since they took their dignity from their father, Prince Christian of Schleswig-Holstein, who married Queen Victoria's fifth child, Princess Helena. However, Queen Victoria granted the style of Highness in 1866 to any children born of the marriage of Prince and Princess Christian of Schleswig-Holstein.

She also granted the style of Royal Highness to Prince Christian a few days before their wedding. Their children were still Princes or Princess of Schleswig-Holstein and the style was only in effect in the UK, not in Germany, but they were granted additional dignities by the Queen.

George V issued a Royal Warrant in 1917 directing his cousins to stop using the Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Augustenburg ducal styles in the UK. He never formally granted them the titles of Princesses of GB, but permitted them to continue to use the dignity since they spent their entire life in the UK, not Germany.
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  #165  
Old 07-29-2005, 09:14 AM
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S-H-S-A and Anhalt

Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
As male-line granddaughters of the Duke of Schleswig-Holstein and Queen Victoria, Princesses Helena Victoria and Marie Louise were styled Serene Highness since they took their dignity from their father, Prince Christian of Schleswig-Holstein. However, Queen Victoria granted the style of Highness in 1866 to any children born of the marriage.
She also granted the style of Royal Highness to Prince Christian a few days before their wedding. Their children were still Princes or Princess of Schleswig-Holstein and the style was only in effect in the UK, not in Germany.
He never formally granted them the titles of Princesses of GB, but permitted them to continue to use the dignity since they spent their entire life in the UK, not Germany.
Thanks branchg! Now we have a new topic...
No idea of the answers, but I wonder what sort of precedence the German-titled members of the extended Royal Family had. eg Princess Helena Victoria, although a granddaughter of the late Monarch was up until 1917 a Princess of S-H-S-A, but then continued to be a Princess, but "of nothing". If these styles were legit in the UK, how would they be recognised in Germany? Or would the Empire and each Kingdom, Grand Duchy, Principality etc have its own rules of recognition?

Princess Marie Louise is much more interesting. Married to the (probably gay) Prince Aribert of Anhalt in 1891, she was divorced in 1900 with the support or at least sympathy of Queen Victoria - divorce may have been relatively unusual, but did happen! But the good part of this story is that Prince Aribert's father, Friedrich I, Duke of Anhalt, exercised his rights as a medieval Sovereign Prince to annul the marriage. I wonder if Princess Caroline of Monaco wished her father had such powers when she was battling the Vatican to obtain her annulment!
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  #166  
Old 07-29-2005, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren
Thanks branchg! Now we have a new topic...
No idea of the answers, but I wonder what sort of precedence the German-titled members of the extended Royal Family had. eg Princess Helena Victoria, although a granddaughter of the late Monarch was up until 1917 a Princess of S-H-S-A, but then continued to be a Princess, but "of nothing". If these styles were legit in the UK, how would they be recognised in Germany? Or would the Empire and each Kingdom, Grand Duchy, Principality etc have its own rules of recognition?
I would imagine Princess Helena and Princess Louise, as grandaughters of HM Queen Victoria in the female line, would have taken precedence after the children of George V and Queen Mary and the surviving children of Queen Victoria. Although not formally princesses of GB, they still held the style with the assent of George V.

The granting of British honours, such as Royal Highness or Highness, meant nothing in the German principalities, duchies and states, especially since Helena and Louise, like their Battenberg cousins, were born German princesses and styled after their father's titles and dignities. But, since so many of Victoria's children married German princes and dukes, but lived their entire lives in England with their children, I would think Victoria's gifts of dignity and title meant a great deal to them as British subjects.
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  #167  
Old 07-29-2005, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frothy
The general rule is that a woman may not be reduced in rank by a marriage, only raised in rank. Recently this was extended to allow armigerous women to keep the right to use their coat of arms (in a lozenge) upon their marriage "beneath them" as it were to a non-armigerous man. Previously a woman in this situation would have lost her right to her arms.
And if William marries an Imperial Highness (a Japanese princess for example), what happens?
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  #168  
Old 07-29-2005, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
Upon the deaths of the current Dukes of Kent and Gloucester, their eldest sons will still hold a royal dukedom with the style of His Grace, not HRH.
Will Lord Frederick Windsor be known as HRH the Prince of Kent when his father die? And what about Gabriella?
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  #169  
Old 07-29-2005, 02:10 PM
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Answers to questions

Wow, that would be interesting if William took an interest in a Japanese princess! (Probably not in this universe, though. :) ) I don't know the answer, but my guess is that the Princess would keep her "Imperial Highness" and then match William's place in the order of precedence in Britain.

As for Frederick and Gabriella, I think they will continue as Lord Frederick Windsor and Lady Gabriella Windsor (or whatever her married name will be), and never Prince Frederick of Kent for Freddy, and certainly neither will be an HRH under the letter of patent in 1917. Right?
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  #170  
Old 07-29-2005, 02:16 PM
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"Will Lord Frederick Windsor be known as HRH the Prince of Kent when his father die? And what about Gabriella?"

They will continue to be known by their current names; the only thing that would change Lady Gabriella's name is marriage, when she'd become known as Lady Gabriella Newlastname unless her husband has a higher rank, in which case she'd be known as The Duchess of Whatever or Princess Gabriella or something. Far as I know, as the son of a younger son and as someone too distant from the direct line of descent from a monarch to become HRH, Lord Frederick will keep his title as is.
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  #171  
Old 07-29-2005, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iowabelle
Wow, that would be interesting if William took an interest in a Japanese princess! (Probably not in this universe, though. :) ) I don't know the answer, but my guess is that the Princess would keep her "Imperial Highness" and then match William's place in the order of precedence in Britain.

As for Frederick and Gabriella, I think they will continue as Lord Frederick Windsor and Lady Gabriella Windsor (or whatever her married name will be), and never Prince Frederick of Kent for Freddy, and certainly neither will be an HRH under the letter of patent in 1917. Right?
Technically, a Japanese princess with the style of Imperial Highness would be permitted to hold the style of Imperial and Royal Highness upon marriage to William, however, this would have to be decided upon between the Emperor and the Queen, with the approval of both Governments.

Lord Frederick Windsor is correctly styled, although I'm not sure if he will be able to pass his courtesy style to his children. Lady Gabriella would retain her style unless she married a man of superior rank or voluntarily relinquished it with marriage to a commoner.
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  #172  
Old 07-29-2005, 03:16 PM
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Thank you for the answers.

Frothy,

I'm very sorry to bring the Yorks back here but I was wondering why on the Debbrett's site they present Andrew as:
YORK, HRH The Duke of; HRH The Prince Andrew Albert Christian Edward
But Bea is:
YORK, HRH Princess Beatrice of; Princess Beatrice Elizabeth Mary

Why not YORK, HRH Princess Beatrice of; HRH Princess Beatrice Elizabeth Mary, like her dad.

BTW, this tread is great!
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  #173  
Old 07-29-2005, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
Technically, a Japanese princess with the style of Imperial Highness would be permitted to hold the style of Imperial and Royal Highness upon marriage to William, however, this would have to be decided upon between the Emperor and the Queen, with the approval of both Governments.
Thank you.
Austria has no longer a emperor but still has Imperial highnesses.
If Harry (let's change a bit) was to marry an Austrian princess, with whom this matter will be discussed? The senior prince (or Grand -Duke, I'm not sure , I'm a neophyte).
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  #174  
Old 07-29-2005, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Idriel
Thank you.
Austria has no longer a emperor but still has Imperial highnesses.
If Harry (let's change a bit) was to marry an Austrian princess, with whom this matter will be discussed? The senior prince (or Grand -Duke, I'm not sure , I'm a neophyte).
It would be decided between the Queen and the Head of the Imperial House of Hapsburg, currently HIRH Archduke Dr. Otto von Hapsburg. And, the Queen would still need to consult with the Prime Minister for advice.
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  #175  
Old 07-29-2005, 04:03 PM
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At the moment, Japanese princesses lose their titles when they marry, at least when they marry commoners. I don't think it'd be any different if they married foreign royal or serene highnesses or aristocrats.
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  #176  
Old 07-29-2005, 05:21 PM
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Smile

I forgot, Elspeth, I think you're right.

It's curious that the Japanese princesses lose their titles and formally cease to be members of the Royal Family when they marry commoners. And if a Japanese princess were to marry William, technically that would be a step down for the princess since she's an "Imperial Highness" and William is merely a "Royal Highness." So she'd probably lose her title anyway.

Anyone up for discussing the Japanese order of precedence? :) JUST KIDDING!
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  #177  
Old 07-29-2005, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Idriel
Thank you.
Austria has no longer a emperor but still has Imperial highnesses.
If Harry (let's change a bit) was to marry an Austrian princess, with whom this matter will be discussed? The senior prince (or Grand -Duke, I'm not sure , I'm a neophyte).
Just to clarify, Austria neither has an Emperor or Imperial Highnesses. All titles and styles of nobility are illegal in that country. The Austrian laws are much more stricter on this subject than the German ones. Otto von Hapsburg had to renounce all claims in order to be allowed entry (although his family recognizes this as being out of necessity, and he is still the head of his house). Members of the former ruling house use the Imperial Highness as styles of pretension only.

Additionally, it is unlikely that Harry would marry an Austrian 'archduchess' because a). he probably doesn't know any, and b). because an Austrian 'archduchess' would, most likely, be a Catholic. Members of the BRF are not allowed to marry Catholics without losing their place in the succession.

It is unlikely that a Catholic archduchess would change her faith.
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  #178  
Old 07-29-2005, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
At the moment, Japanese princesses lose their titles when they marry, at least when they marry commoners. I don't think it'd be any different if they married foreign royal or serene highnesses or aristocrats.
Correct. This was done after WW II in order to limit the size of the Imperial family. At the same time several branches of the family became commoners, as they were stripped of their titles and styles. The only exception is when a princess marries a male member of the Imperial family.
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  #179  
Old 07-29-2005, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
Technically, a Japanese princess with the style of Imperial Highness would be permitted to hold the style of Imperial and Royal Highness upon marriage to William, however, this would have to be decided upon between the Emperor and the Queen, with the approval of both Governments.

Lord Frederick Windsor is correctly styled, although I'm not sure if he will be able to pass his courtesy style to his children. Lady Gabriella would retain her style unless she married a man of superior rank or voluntarily relinquished it with marriage to a commoner.
The style of Lord can not be passed down since it is a style and not a title. His (legitimate) children will only be "X Windsor", unless of course he is granted a hereditary title sometime in the future.
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  #180  
Old 07-29-2005, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frothy



I hope that can put an end to it - you were right about the divorced Duchess not being called Your Grace, but I'm right about this one :)
I've just now read this exchange regarding the Duke of York. As a lay expert on these things, I can state with some authoriy that Frothy is correct, there is no such title as HRH The Prince Andrew, the Duke of York. He is HRH the Duke of York.
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