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  #141  
Old 07-27-2005, 07:47 PM
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I don't understand why it's only the Princesses of the Blood who proceed Camilla. Why don't the Princes such as Prince Michael & the Duke of Gloucester also proceed her. They were also born Royal.
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  #142  
Old 07-27-2005, 08:30 PM
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This is talking about the order of precedence for royal females. For males, it's probably different. I assume by the same token, Princess Anne's husband would follow the royal Dukes, but I don't know for certain.
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  #143  
Old 07-27-2005, 08:36 PM
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I just don't see Princess Alexandra as being the one behind this (although she deserves great respect for the service she has provided).

Maybe this was the Queen's idea, or more probably, that of "the men in grey."
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  #144  
Old 07-28-2005, 02:22 AM
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i googled and found a lot of sites writing 'HRH The Prince Andrew, Duke of York', but not on the royal family sites or the debrette.
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  #145  
Old 07-28-2005, 03:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sara1981
i read your posts about that!
Camilla is not Princess of Wales!
Sara Boyce
According to Wikipedia:

Camilla's full title after her marriage is Her Royal Highness The Princess of Wales and Countess of Chester, Duchess of Cornwall, Duchess of Rothesay, Countess of Carrick, Baroness of Renfrew, Lady of the Isles, Princess of Scotland.
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  #146  
Old 07-28-2005, 04:53 AM
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Does any of this really matter? Not just the Camilla question but this to ing and frowing about Andrew. Camilla is Charles' wife. Something I didn't believe would ever happen. (I'm happy it did) Prince Andrew, which he is, The Duke of York, which he also is, will always be the son of Queen Elizabeth, great grandson of George V etc etc. No amount of disagreements on this thread will ever change that.
I may be speaking out of turn but the only reason Camilla isn't Princess of Wales and allowed her Rightful place in precedence in this country is because of threads and forums like this one, deliberating over whether she should have married Charles or not.
You either have an order of precedence or you don't. You should however have the belief in your convictions and stick to them.
Camilla shoud have the same placeas her husband as that is what happens in Britain with every other married couple - what will happen when the whole family is together like what happened at the Jubilee celebrations? The Family walked down the aisle of Westminster Abbey in order.
Will Camilla have to walk behind Princess Anne and Princess Alexandria without Charles? And if she doesn't will that then not make a mockery of the order of precedence in itself?
I myself do not know the answers to the thoughts but I woud be grateful if anyone else knew!
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  #147  
Old 07-28-2005, 05:11 AM
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But actually does the Duchess curtsy to Princess Royal or Princess Alexandra?I already known that in the Royal Family they don't need to curtsy to each other except the Queen to respect their status but if it have to,does the Duchess has to curtsy?
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  #148  
Old 07-28-2005, 06:37 AM
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Intersex

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
I'm not sure that she was actually male; a lot less was known about the biology of sexuality back in the mid-20th century. She was raised as a boy because she had some medical condition (which I used to know what it was called and am now totally blanking out) that made her sexuality unclear. I think her parents pretty much had to make a decision whether to raise her as a son or daughter .
The term these days for unclear or uncertain gender is "intersex". Curiously enough there was a story in the papers here the other day about an intersex teenager who a Court has allowed to have gender re-assignment surgery. Apparently there are about 40,000 cases in Australia out of a population of over 20 million. I guess it's one of those things that parents aren't likely to talk about outside immediate family, so the general public is largely unaware of this condition.

Viewers of the British soap "Night and Day" would have encountered it.
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  #149  
Old 07-28-2005, 06:52 AM
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No small matter!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgia
Does any of this really matter? Not just the Camilla question but this toing and frowing about Andrew.
This sort of stuff matters to some of us because it covers the more arcane aspects of the British Monarchy, and we like the fine detail. We prefer this discussion rather than debate the merits of Camilla's frocks and shoes. :)
Quote:
what will happen when the whole family is together like what happened at the Jubilee celebrations? The Family walked down the aisle of Westminster Abbey in order.Will Camilla have to walk behind Princess Anne and Princess Alexandria without Charles?
The Order of Precedence where Camilla ranks behind (some) Princesses of the Blood relates to what happens under The Queen's roof. It is Family Business.

Walking down the aisle of Westminster Abbey is Public Business, and therefore the official (or Government) Order of Precedence comes into play. Camilla thus ranks as the wife of The Prince of Wales and they would follow The Queen and The Duke of Edinburgh in the procession.
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  #150  
Old 07-28-2005, 11:51 AM
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I do wonder why they've made this public, though, as long as it doesn't affect anything except private business. Certainly the Queen can decide who sits where at the table and who gets offered sherry before who, and who opens Christmas presents first or whatever, but do the rest of us need to know that, as long as it's only what goes on within the family? Making it public does seem to be a way to obliquely letting people know that Camilla's been subtlely downgraded. And if that wasn't the intention, it does seem to have been the effect.
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  #151  
Old 07-28-2005, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
I do wonder why they've made this public, though, as long as it doesn't affect anything except private business. Certainly the Queen can decide who sits where at the table and who gets offered sherry before who, and who opens Christmas presents first or whatever, but do the rest of us need to know that, as long as it's only what goes on within the family? Making it public does seem to be a way to obliquely letting people know that Camilla's been subtlely downgraded. And if that wasn't the intention, it does seem to have been the effect.
I agree. It seems very odd as court precedence is not something the Household would comment on publicly. In my opinion, I think it is a subtle signal from the Queen to the public that while she accepted the marriage and welcomed Camilla into the fold, she did not wholly embrace her.

The Queen was certainly very reluctant indeed to consent to the marriage, so perhaps this is inevitable in light of her feelings about it. Prince Harry was said to be very unhappy about the marriage and this could be a factor as well.
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  #152  
Old 07-28-2005, 12:48 PM
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Branchq,

All you do is make my point for me. The webpage from Debrett's you gave merely lists first the actual title and then the names, second, to show what names the Prince(ss) in question has. If you click on Beatrice or Eugenie, for example, you will see their Christian names similiary listed; HRH Beatrice Anne Louise (or whatever it is).

The webpage does not add "of York" because all it is doing is giving the names. We know that Bea's title is not HRH Princess Beatrice but HRH Princess Beatrice of York, reflecting her father's royal ducal dignity.

Go back to the 'Royal Connections' page which links to the individual page you brough up for the Duke of York. What does it do? Lists the line of succession with the Prince(ss)- es names in brackets underneath. HRH The Duke of York, it says, and then underneath in brackets (Prince Andrew).

We need to get it clearly understood that there is NO title HRH The Prince Andrew, Duke of York. His title is HRH The Duke of York. The sole website you have provided supports me, not you, on this matter; it gives the address to write to the Prince as HRH the Duke of York; lists his title as such in the line of succession, etc. In terms of writing, it clearly states a royal Duke is written to as HRH the Duke of ---X. The reason it lists the son of the sovereign and gives HRH The Prince Edward as an example is because that page was written before Edward was made Earl of Wessex; there is instruction on how to write to a royal duke but nothing about a royal earl or countess; royal earls and countesses are mentioned nowhere on the page, so at the time, Edward was still simply The Prince Edward. (Duke has a footnote 'for Dukes of the blood royal see Prince' - nothing similiar under Earl).

Anyway, I have in this thread given you links to Buckingham Palace's own website and to the Court Circular, issued by Buckingham Palace. Both list the Duke of York solely as HRH The Duke of York. Unsurprising, because that is his title.

If you are not prepared to accept the view of Buckingham Palace's own website and court-issued documents as to what his title is, then I submit that you are never going to be convinced by anything and certainly not by anything I post.

I don't know why we can't agree to let Buckingham Palace have the last word. The Royal Family But I accept the combined assurances of BP, the Court Circular Court circular - Comment - Times Online and Debrett's Debrett's - The Royal Family and the Order of Succession

that the title is HRH The Duke of York.

If you keep insisting that there's such a title as HRH The Prince Andrew, Duke of York I'll just keep disagreeing with you, but I think I'll let the folks make up their own minds at this point as we are going in circles.
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  #153  
Old 07-28-2005, 12:55 PM
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One more thing. If you follow the drop-down menu from Buck Palace to HRH The Duke of York, this is what you get:

The Royal Family > HRH The Duke of York > Background

Quote:
BACKGROUND

The Duke of York was born on 19 February 1960 at Buckingham Palace, the second son and the third child of The Queen and The Duke of Edinburgh.

He was the first child to be born to a reigning monarch for 103 years.

Named Andrew Albert Christian Edward, he was known as Prince Andrew until his marriage, when he was created The Duke of York, Earl of Inverness and Baron Killyleagh.
I hope that can put an end to it - you were right about the divorced Duchess not being called Your Grace, but I'm right about this one :)
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  #154  
Old 07-28-2005, 12:57 PM
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OK. That bold thing again. I did not bold that line. Warren kindly pmed me and told me to go back and edit, bold the whole thing and un-bold it, but that didn't work. I did not emphasise that last line. Apologies for how it came out.
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  #155  
Old 07-28-2005, 01:00 PM
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Re: private precedence.

This is another example of what I mean by messed up titles and precedence. Under what universe does it make sense for Camilla to rank before wives of the princes but after the blood princesses? doesn't that mean that wives of the princes themselves rank after the blood princesses? Which, itself, means that the Queen is commenting adversely on the very status of marriage itself. The wives are being denied the rank of their husbands, not just Camilla, but Sophie too. The Duchess of Gloucester should have the rank of the Duke and so forth.
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  #156  
Old 07-28-2005, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frothy
Re: private precedence.

This is another example of what I mean by messed up titles and precedence. Under what universe does it make sense for Camilla to rank before wives of the princes but after the blood princesses? doesn't that mean that wives of the princes themselves rank after the blood princesses? Which, itself, means that the Queen is commenting adversely on the very status of marriage itself. The wives are being denied the rank of their husbands, not just Camilla, but Sophie too. The Duchess of Gloucester should have the rank of the Duke and so forth.
Frothy,

All of these things become very arcane when you do not fully understand the interaction between history, precedence, Parliamentary law and the British constitutional monarchy. Hang it up.
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  #157  
Old 07-28-2005, 02:28 PM
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This is getting so tired. Branchg and Frothy, argue it out in Private Messaging.
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  #158  
Old 07-28-2005, 03:00 PM
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As long as people are arguing on topic and staying civil, there's no problem with continuing the conversation on the threads. On the other hand, there do seem to be indications that things are getting a bit less than civil. Invitations to "hang it up" are out of line. Obviously we have two people who don't agree, but there's no productivity in one just claiming that the other doesn't know what he's talking about.

If there's going to be no more topics of any substance, just personal insults, I'll close the thread rather than have it degenerate.
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  #159  
Old 07-28-2005, 03:13 PM
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Excuse me Tiparin, but after providing some proof of The Duke of York's title from the BRF's own website I did say I was done. FWIW, I do agree that the topic's done now (the Duke of York, that is. Precedence as such still interests me).

I want to say that I think branchq is a fount of knowledge, in general, and have enjoyed reading his/her posts both before de-lurking and after.
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  #160  
Old 07-28-2005, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frothy
Excuse me Tiparin, but after providing some proof of The Duke of York's title from the BRF's own website I did say I was done. FWIW, I do agree that the topic's done now (the Duke of York, that is. Precedence as such still interests me).

I want to say that I think branchq is a fount of knowledge, in general, and have enjoyed reading his/her posts both before de-lurking and after.
I'm not trying to insult you, Frothy, and I enjoy your responses. I think we can agree the discussion on this subject is done.
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