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  #1061  
Old 01-07-2013, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Rocketmom View Post
While re-watching William and Kate's wedding, I noticed that the Kents and Glouchesters were seated in row 3 while Peter and Zara were in row 4. They come before the Kents etc in the succession. Are the Kent's seated in a earlier row due to age?
My first off the wall guesstimate is that they were seated in front of Peter and Zara because they hold the title HRH and Anne's children do not.
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  #1062  
Old 01-09-2013, 01:19 PM
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It would have been difficult for Louise's children to be in the order of precedence ... she did not have any children.
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
That's an interesting question.

The Order of Precedence puts Sovereign's granddaughters immediately after the wives of Sovereign's grandsons; there is no mention that they should be Royal Highnesses or have titles of any sorts. Zara and Louise are the Queen's granddaughters - ergo, they should be included.

When Queen Victoria's daughter married a non-royal (a pretty daring move in those times) - the Duke of Argyll - that didn't mean her children were crossed out from the Order of Precedence. I would assume the same applies to the Queen's non-titled grandchildren. For the same reason, I have included Autumn Phillips (wife of the Sovereign's grandson), Viscountess Linley (the wife of the Sovereign's nephew), and others.
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  #1063  
Old 01-09-2013, 02:58 PM
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True, my mistake.
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  #1064  
Old 02-06-2013, 01:25 PM
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I know how the order of precedence normally works.
When only women are in the room, princesses of blood take precedence over princess' by marriage.

Also when a husband of one of the princess' by marriage enters he takes her husbands precedence. Is it applicable to all in the room or only that princess whose husband is in the room?

For instance the York sisters, Kate and Camilla are in a room. Under normal circumstances the Yorks take precedence but if William enters Kate will take his precedence and outrank Eugenie and Beatrice. Will Camilla also take on her husbands precedence or will Kate outrank her?
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  #1065  
Old 02-06-2013, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Princess B View Post
...
For instance the York sisters, Kate and Camilla are in a room. Under normal circumstances the Yorks take precedence but if William enters Kate will take his precedence and outrank Eugenie and Beatrice. Will Camilla also take on her husbands precedence or will Kate outrank her?
Firstly, we must again remember the difference between the Official and Private Orders of Precedence. It is only in the Private Order that the blood Princesses outrank Princesses by marriage. In the Official Order of Precedence, as the Duchess of Cornwall (wife of the Heir Apparent) Camilla is the second woman in the Kingdom after the Queen. In the Private Order, Camilla comes only after Princess Anne and Alexandra (Princesses by birth of the older generation) but above everyone else. Kate comes after the Princesses by birth of the younger generation (Beatrice and Eugenie) in the Private Order of Precedence but ahead them in the Official one.

In the scenario you mentioned, if the York sisters, Kate and Camilla are present then regardless of William and Charles' presence Camilla automatically outranks all three. Kate comes ahead of the York sisters in the Official Order (as wife of the Sovereign's grandson) but below them in the Private Order.
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  #1066  
Old 02-07-2013, 01:04 PM
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Thank u artemisia
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  #1067  
Old 02-07-2013, 01:56 PM
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We also have to remember that Camilla & Catherine are the second and third ladies of the land. So they are both high ranking ladies.
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  #1068  
Old 02-07-2013, 02:03 PM
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That's not entirely true.
In the Official Order of Precedence, the Duchesses are the 2nd (Camilla) and the 4th (Kate) ladies in the Kingdom.

Kate, as wife of the Sovereign's grandson, comes after Sophie - wife of the Sovereign's son. In the Private Order, Camilla and Kate come respectively 4th and 8th (Camilla is after the Queen, Princess Anne and Princess Alexandra, while Kate is after the Queen, Anne, Alexandra, Camilla, Sophie, Beatrice and Eugenie).
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  #1069  
Old 02-07-2013, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post

That's not entirely true.
In the Official Order of Precedence, the Duchesses are the 2nd (Camilla) and the 4th (Kate) ladies in the Kingdom.

Kate, as wife of the Sovereign's grandson, comes after Sophie - wife of the Sovereign's son. In the Private Order, Camilla and Kate come respectively 4th and 8th (Camilla is after the Queen, Princess Anne and Princess Alexandra, while Kate is after the Queen, Anne, Alexandra, Camilla, Sophie, Beatrice and Eugenie).
Yeah, that may be for the set Order of Precedence but the two main ladies you see following The Queen at public events are Camilla and Catherine.
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  #1070  
Old 02-07-2013, 03:07 PM
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No arguments there.
Although it may just be a question of simple convenience; the Wales family usually arrives and leaves together.
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  #1071  
Old 02-07-2013, 03:12 PM
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I don't think the BRF is as hung up on formal precedence as some members of these forums. I recall the Master of the Household giving an interview at the time of the 2011 wedding and him saying the palace gets regular calls asking for a copy of the official protocol book and his response is always that no such book exists, that protocol is just a question of good manners and what is practical for each event.
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  #1072  
Old 02-07-2013, 03:16 PM
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Obviously, most of what is discussed in this particular thread has more of an academical than practical purpose. I doubt the Countess of Wessex throws a tantrum every time the Duchess of Cambridge is perceived to outrank her, or Prince Andrew refuses to talk to his mother because William and Harry appear to have precedence over him, even if unofficially.

It's still fun and interesting to understand how the precedence is supposed to work though. Well, it is for me and presumably to you as well since you have made many interesting posts here.
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  #1073  
Old 02-07-2013, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
I don't think the BRF is as hung up on formal precedence as some members of these forums. I recall the Master of the Household giving an interview at the time of the 2011 wedding and him saying the palace gets regular calls asking for a copy of the official protocol book and his response is always that no such book exists, that protocol is just a question of good manners and what is practical for each event.
Yeah, I think you are talking about Sir Malcolm Ross. I remember his commentary.

I think The Queen made things pretty clear during her Diamond Jubliee events. Camilla & Catherine were the main two ladies she brought some attention to.

Artemisia, understanding the Order of Precedence can be fun and confusing at the sametime. I know the palace must get tired of all those precdence questions.
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  #1074  
Old 02-07-2013, 03:33 PM
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I really don't think we ever see true precedence in this family, and that doesn't really bother me. We have always seen Charles' son's walk after him as the family leave occasions, and of course now we see Camilla and Catherine walking with their husbands.

Sophie is the 3rd lady "in the land" as she is the wife of the Sovereign's son, but Beatrice and Eugenie always walk before her with their father. The family now just seems to walk in older of succession, as opposed to precedence. There will come a time when Louise wont walk with Edward, but instead she will walk behind Anne but ahead of Peter and Zara as Louise is not an HRH (legally yes, but it's not used as we know).

I don't think we will ever see a situation where it is just the women of the Royals together at an engagement. I say women and include Sophie in this. We have of course see the Queen, Camilla and Catherine attend an engagement together, but never all the "leading women" in the family together. I do however remember watching a video of the women at an engagement at Buckingham Palace in February 2007 for "Women in Business" and Anne came before Camilla, followed by Sophie and Birgitte. Alexandra was not there, but I would imagine she would have come before/after Anne.
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  #1075  
Old 02-07-2013, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
Firstly, we must again remember the difference between the Official and Private Orders of Precedence. It is only in the Private Order that the blood Princesses outrank Princesses by marriage. In the Official Order of Precedence, as the Duchess of Cornwall (wife of the Heir Apparent) Camilla is the second woman in the Kingdom after the Queen. In the Private Order, Camilla comes only after Princess Anne and Alexandra (Princesses by birth of the older generation) but above everyone else. Kate comes after the Princesses by birth of the younger generation (Beatrice and Eugenie) in the Private Order of Precedence but ahead them in the Official one.
Where have you seen this?

I have only seen reference to blood princesses coming before married in princesses in private precedence with no mention of generations - so Beatrice and Eugenie also before Camilla as blood princesses.

Of course this is only in private when the only people present are the women of the royal family and we never ever see them in private.
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  #1076  
Old 02-07-2013, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess B View Post
I know how the order of precedence normally works.
When only women are in the room, princesses of blood take precedence over princess' by marriage.

Also when a husband of one of the princess' by marriage enters he takes her husbands precedence. Is it applicable to all in the room or only that princess whose husband is in the room?

For instance the York sisters, Kate and Camilla are in a room. Under normal circumstances the Yorks take precedence but if William enters Kate will take his precedence and outrank Eugenie and Beatrice. Will Camilla also take on her husbands precedence or will Kate outrank her?

The precedence you are referring to is the private precedence for royal women when they are alone.

As soon as any man is present that precedence goes out the window so then all women take their precedence according to the private precedence of the men and women combined.
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  #1077  
Old 02-07-2013, 04:08 PM
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We have this private precedence for women but we have never seen one for men.

When it is only the men of the extended family where does say Tim Lawrence fit - behind the Dukes of Gloucester and Kent and David Linley or ...

Do the men have something similar? It has never been announced to my knowledge.

I know that when in mixed company Tim would take precedence alongside Anne just as the wives take the precedence of their husbands but when it is just the men??
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  #1078  
Old 02-08-2013, 03:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Where have you seen this?

I have only seen reference to blood princesses coming before married in princesses in private precedence with no mention of generations - so Beatrice and Eugenie also before Camilla as blood princesses.

Of course this is only in private when the only people present are the women of the royal family and we never ever see them in private.
I admit that assumption of mine is based on information provided by branchg (see the post). I myself haven't seen that confirmation from the Palace. However, that scenario would make sense so I am inclined to believe it.

In regards to Camilla's position, I have seen confirmation from the Palace that she only comes after two blood Princesses - Alexandra and Anne - but ahead of Beatrice and Eugenie.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
We have this private precedence for women but we have never seen one for men.

When it is only the men of the extended family where does say Tim Lawrence fit - behind the Dukes of Gloucester and Kent and David Linley or ...

Do the men have something similar? It has never been announced to my knowledge.

I know that when in mixed company Tim would take precedence alongside Anne just as the wives take the precedence of their husbands but when it is just the men??
I think we can be fairly certain some sort of Private Precedence does exist for men as well. Among other things, William and Harry appear to occasional outrank Andrew and Edward which is not consistent with the Official Order of Precedence.

In regards to Tim, if he is includes in the Private Order of Precedence at all then he most likely takes his precedence from his wife, meaning he should come ahead of the Gloucesters and Kents. Then again, the order may be based on the principle of royal blood (those who were born royal come first), in which case we would come after Prince Richard and Prince Edward.

I'd say the Private Order of Precedence goes like this:
- The Duke of Edinburgh
- The Prince of Wales
- The Duke of Cambridge
- Prince Henry of Wales
- The Duke of York
- The Earl of Wessex *
- The Duke of Gloucester
- The Duke of Kent
- Timothy Lawrence

* Viscount Severn is not included because he is not of age yet
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  #1079  
Old 02-08-2013, 03:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
I admit that assumption of mine is based on information provided by branchg (see the post). I myself haven't seen that confirmation from the Palace. However, that scenario would make sense so I am inclined to believe it.

In regards to Camilla's position, I have seen confirmation from the Palace that she only comes after two blood Princesses - Alexandra and Anne - but ahead of Beatrice and Eugenie.

Where have you seen this confirmation? I found it strange that you have seen this when the palace hasn't confirmed anything about this at all - it has only been reported by 'palaces sources' but not by an official palace spokesperson.
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  #1080  
Old 02-08-2013, 05:40 AM
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This is only about Ladies' Precedence
1.Though there is no specific confirmation or statement, the "list" clearly indicates that blood princesses outrank those of marriage, only of their generation, or younger, but never of older generation.
Beatrice and Eugenie will never outrank Camilla/Sophie. Only Anne outranks the latter two. Beatrice, Eugenie and Louise will outrank wives of William and Harry in present reign, but I doubt that will happen in the next reign.
2.Regd. position of Princess Alexandra in Ladies' Precedence
Actually, if the list was strictly made, Princess Alexandra should have been placed after all the immediate royal family.
It should be like this:
After the ladies of George VI family,
1.Alexandra of Kent
2.Duchess of Gloucester
3.Duchess of Kent
4.Marie-Christine
5.Gloucester daughters, Kent daughters, ALexandra's daughter.
6.Daughters in law..AS ABOVE order.
This was Alexandra's rightful place, but they took her right next to Queen and Anne. Of course she was the granddaughter of monarch, but so are Bea, Eu and Louise, and they are grand-daughters of present sovereign.
This is the only case where they have taken generations into consideration and placed ALexandra ahead of all Queen's grand-daughters.
But in that case she should be placed even ahead of Anne, since she is of the Queen's generation. Although I secretly feel this was to make Anne look less of a villain, all the talk of her refusing to be below Camilla, leading up this whole thing. Lot of ambiguity and lack of clarity in this list.
I am never a fan of this whole thing.
Its either to convince public public that Camilla was not 'overjoyously welcome' or to placate Anne's ego.
Whatever, the Queen was poorly 'advised' in this matter, I feel.
The BRF does evrything else so systematically, and this is a big exception.
The very creation and motive of Ladies Precedence seems to be a mess, and it becomes much more messier, once we take it beyond the immediate RF.
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