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  #941  
Old 11-21-2012, 08:02 AM
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Peter and Zara will always always be royal grandchildren since they will always be grandchildren of Queen Elizabeth II. It doesn't state cousin because cousins come from both sides of a family. One side is not going to be a relation to the sovereign.
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  #942  
Old 11-21-2012, 04:05 PM
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Peter and Zara will always be grandchildren of EII, that's for sure, but their relation to the Sovereign will be different during their uncle's and cousin's reigns! That's what matters in precedence rank and nothing else.
The Order of Precedence among members of the Royal Family depends on a person's degree of kinship to the currently reigning Sovereign. Thus, the late Earl of Harewood held precedence after Prince Michael of Kent at the time of his death because he was a first cousin of the Sovereign through the royal line. He was a female-line grandson of George V but his line of kinship to the Queen came from his Royal mother, The Princess Mary, Princess Royal and Countess of Harewood, who was EII's paternal aunt. The late Earl had a younger brother who was ranked in the Order of Precedence right after him. Their spouses held their rank and precedence and one of them, Patricia Lascelles, Dowager Countess of Harewood, is now the only remaining member of the Harewoods in top class of the Order of Precedence in the UK. As a widow, she remains her status and ranks immediately after Princess Michael of Kent and before Princess Alexandra.
A similiar situation as the Lascelleses' was is the future precedence of Peter and Zara Phillips during Prince William's reign. They will hold precedence in the top of the order among other members of the Royal Family.
The current Earl of Harewood's status and precedence is based on his peerage and nothing else as his degree of kinship to the Sovereign is too remote to implicate his official rank.

As for who is and who is not a member of the Royal Family... It depends on what do you mean by a "royal family"? Family of the Queen (immediate or extended)? The Royal House, including those who descend in female-lines but remains their rights to the throne? Generally, to be "royal" in some way a person must have blood ties to the Royal line of Sovereigns.
I think those who are entitled by law to the status and titles of Prince and Princess of the UK are members of the Royal Family with no doubt. And they are the only people of whom we may say for sure they are members of the Royal Family. As wee look on the Order of Precedence, the Queen's immediate family through female line is also given a privilledged position. That's the second group of people whose belonging to the Royal Family is obvious. They are the Queen's immediate royal family. The Bowes-Lyons are surely the Queen's immediate family too but they do not come from the Royal House so they cannot be included in the Royal Family at all, even extended.
In wider sense, all those who are descended from the Sovereigns of the UK and remain potential heirs to its throne are Royal House (Family) of the realm.
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  #943  
Old 11-21-2012, 04:21 PM
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Why would the Dowager Countess of Harewood come before Princess Alexandra? Alexandra is a male line descendent of George V while Lady Harewood is the widow of a female line descendent.
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  #944  
Old 11-21-2012, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Why would the Dowager Countess of Harewood come before Princess Alexandra? Alexandra is a male line descendent of George V while Lady Harewood is the widow of a female line descendent.
Because according the Order of Precedence, wives (and, I assume, widows) of the Sovereign's cousins come before the Sovereign's cousins. Since the Dowager Countess is indeed a female-line descendant, she ranks below wives of male-line cousins (such as the Duchesses of Gloucester and Kent), but still above cousins.
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  #945  
Old 11-21-2012, 04:43 PM
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Could you clarify that a bit more Artemisia? If as you say the wife of a cousin comes before the actual cousin then in theory that would mean the Duchess of Gloucester, as a wife, has precedence over her own husband, the actual cousin of the monarch. Alexandra is a male line descendent of a monarch while Patricia Harewood is the window of a female line cousin of a monarch. Did the late Lord Harewood have precedence over Alexandra, although even if he did it likely never happened in practice?
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  #946  
Old 11-21-2012, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Could you clarify that a bit more Artemisia? If as you say the wife of a cousin comes before the actual cousin then in theory that would mean the Duchess of Gloucester, as a wife, has precedence over her own husband, the actual cousin of the monarch. Alexandra is a male line descendent of a monarch while Patricia Harewood is the window of a female line cousin of a monarch. Did the late Lord Harewood have precedence over Alexandra, although even if he did it likely never happened in practice?
Firstly, there are two different lists - female and male - which are separate and do not intersect with each other. The Duchess of Gloucester takes her ranking from her husband so obviously she doesn't outrank him. The Earl of Harewood didn't have a precedence over Alexandra because they belonged to different precedence lists. On the other hand, the late Earl of Harewood - as female-line descendant - came after the Queen's male-line cousins in the Men's precedence list.

In male Order of Precedence, Sovereign's male cousins are ranked lowest, based rules of primogeniture (which means male-line descendants come ahead of female-line ones). In female Order of Precedence, wives of Sovereign's cousins come ahead of (female) cousins of the Sovereign.

If you think about it, it's no different to, say, autumn and Zara: the latter outranks the former as wife of the Queen's grandson, despite Zara being the Queen's granddaughter herself.


Below are both orders, based on relation to the Sovereign.


The Official Order of Precedence for Men:
- The King (currently vacant)
- The Sovereign’s consort (husband of a female Monarch – currently, Prince Philip: position not automatic but granted by Order-in-Council)
- The Duke of Cornwall and Rothesay (the Sovereign’s eldest son who’s also the Heir Apparent to the Throne – currently Prince Charles)
- The Sovereign’s younger sons based on primogeniture (currently, Andrew and Edward)
- The Sovereign’s grandsons based on primogeniture (currently, William, Harry, Viscount Severn, Peter Phillips)
- The Sovereign’s brothers based on primogeniture (currently vacant)
- The Sovereign’s uncles based on primogeniture (currently vacant)
- The Sovereign’s nephews based on primogeniture (currently, Viscount Linley)
- The Sovereign’s cousins based on primogeniture (currently, Prince Richard, Prince Edward, Prince Michael)


The Official Order of Precedence
- The Queen (whether Regnant or Consort – currently, Queen Elizabeth II)
- The Queens Dowager (most recent consort first – currently vacant)
- The Wife of the Sovereign’s eldest son (currently, Camilla)
- Wives of the Sovereign’s younger sons based on their husbands’ primogeniture (currently, Sophie)
- The Sovereign’s daughters based on primogeniture (currently, Princess Anne)
- Wives of the Sovereign’s grandsons based on their husbands’ primogeniture (currently, Kate and Autumn)
- The Sovereign’s granddaughters based on primogeniture (currently, Beatrice, Eugenie, Louise and Zara)
- Wives of the Sovereign’s brothers based on primogeniture (currently vacant)
- The Sovereign’s sisters based on primogeniture (currently vacant)
- Wives of the Sovereign’s uncles based on their husbands’ primogeniture (currently, vacant)
- The Sovereign’s aunts based on primogeniture (currently, vacant)
- Wives of the Sovereign’s nephews based on their husbands’ primogeniture (currently, Lady Serena Stanhope)
- The Sovereign’s nieces based on primogeniture (currently, Lady Sarah Chatto)
- Wives of the Sovereign’s cousins based on their husbands’ primogeniture (currently, Birgitte, Katherine, Princess Michael and Dowager Countess of Harewood)
- The Sovereign’s cousins based on primogeniture (currently, Princess Alexandra)
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  #947  
Old 11-21-2012, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by msleiman View Post
I think that William comes before Andrew and Edward. When you look at the way they arrive at events it is Edward, Andrew, William/kate/Harry, Charles/DoC, the Queen - leaving events it is the Queen/DoE, Prince Charles/DoC , William,Kate,and Harry, Duke of York/York girls and then Edward. I also looked this up on the official web site and it states that the order of precedence plays out in events such as Remembrance Day service. It talks about who lays the wreath and the order of precedence - Queen, DoE, Charles, William, Duke of York and Edward ect. If you look at this year it played out that way with the exception of Charles ( was not here this year).
I have always thought so as well. I have yet to see an example in public where either Princes Andrew or Edward have taken precedence over the Duke of Cambridge.
You mention Remembrance Day and also during the Jubliee Thanksgiving service, the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge were seated next to the Prince of Wales and Duchess of Cornwall and ahead of both Andrew and Edward.
At Zara's wedding, the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge along with Prince Harry, left the kirk ahead of Prince Andrew.
It appears the official Order of Precedence that people keep referring to, doesn't play out in public exactly to the script.
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  #948  
Old 11-21-2012, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
Because according the Order of Precedence, wives (and, I assume, widows) of the Sovereign's cousins come before the Sovereign's cousins. Since the Dowager Countess is indeed a female-line descendant, she ranks below wives of male-line cousins (such as the Duchesses of Gloucester and Kent), but still above cousins.
The Sovereign's cousins in the male-line of a monarch take precedence ahead of all female-line cousins as do their wives. Princess Alexandra takes precedence before a wife of a female-line cousin, but not the male-line wives such as The Duchesses of Gloucester and Kent or Princess Michael of Kent.

The Dowager Countess has no official precedence as her status reflects her late husband, who had no place as a female-line cousin of The Sovereign.
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  #949  
Old 11-21-2012, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
I have always thought so as well. I have yet to see an example in public where either Princes Andrew or Edward have taken precedence over the Duke of Cambridge.
You mention Remembrance Day and also during the Jubliee Thanksgiving service, the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge were seated next to the Prince of Wales and Duchess of Cornwall and ahead of both Andrew and Edward.
At Zara's wedding, the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge along with Prince Harry, left the kirk ahead of Prince Andrew.
It appears the official Order of Precedence that people keep referring to, doesn't play out in public exactly to the script.
Remembrance Day or the Service of Thanksgiving are official events, while Zara's wedding is a royal event where court precedence follows.

When with their parents (sons of The Sovereign) the grandchildren take their place right after, followed by the Sovereign's daughter and her children, then the Sovereign's male-line cousins (sons first), etc.

So, The Prince of Wales is followed by William and Harry, then The Duke of York is followed by Beatrice and Eugenie, then The Earl of Wessex with his two children, then The Princess Royal and Peter and Zara.
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  #950  
Old 11-21-2012, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
I have always thought so as well. I have yet to see an example in public where either Princes Andrew or Edward have taken precedence over the Duke of Cambridge.
You mention Remembrance Day and also during the Jubliee Thanksgiving service, the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge were seated next to the Prince of Wales and Duchess of Cornwall and ahead of both Andrew and Edward.
At Zara's wedding, the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge along with Prince Harry, left the kirk ahead of Prince Andrew.
It appears the official Order of Precedence that people keep referring to, doesn't play out in public exactly to the script.
William and Harry come before Andrew and Edward, if they did not it would not play out the way it does in public. The Queen stands on tradition and if Andrew/ Edward took precedence over William/Harry you would see that in the way they all arrived and left events!
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  #951  
Old 11-21-2012, 06:46 PM
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I would really like to get this sorted in my head - because I dont get the basics, I'm not understanding the various points of view.

Where do I go to read up on this - what are the definitive documents? And if there is more than one - what order do I read them in? (there is a joke there I thiink :) )
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  #952  
Old 11-21-2012, 06:54 PM
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The combined Official Order of Precedence is this:

The Sovereign and Consort (HM The Queen and Prince Phillip)
Dowager Queens (none living)
Sons of The Sovereign (Charles, Andrew, Edward)
Sons of Sons of The Sovereign (William, Harry, James)
Daughters of Sons of The Sovereign (Beatrice, Eugenie, Louise)
Daughters of The Sovereign (Anne)
Sons of Daughters of The Sovereign (Peter Phillips)
Daughters of Daughters of The Sovereign (Zara Phillips)
Brothers of The Sovereign (none)
Sons of Brothers of The Sovereign (none)
Daughters of Brothers of The Sovereign (none)
Sisters of The Sovereign (none living)
Sons of Sisters of The Sovereign (Viscount Linley)
Daughters of Sisters of The Sovereign (Lady Sarah Chatto)
Uncles of The Sovereign (descended from a former monarch, none living)
Sons of Uncles of The Sovereign (The Duke of Gloucester, The Duke of Kent, Prince Michael of Kent)
Daughters of Uncles of The Sovereign (Princess Alexandra)
Aunts of The Sovereign (descended from a former monarch, none living)
Sons of Aunts of The Sovereign (none living)
Daughters of Aunts of The Sovereign (none)
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  #953  
Old 11-21-2012, 06:57 PM
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Can someone give me an example where Andrew or Edward have taken precedence over William?
I read the official list but in public it doesn't work that way, William is always ahead of his uncles.
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  #954  
Old 11-21-2012, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Could you clarify that a bit more Artemisia? If as you say the wife of a cousin comes before the actual cousin then in theory that would mean the Duchess of Gloucester, as a wife, has precedence over her own husband, the actual cousin of the monarch. Alexandra is a male line descendent of a monarch while Patricia Harewood is the window of a female line cousin of a monarch.
Wives take precedence of their husbands. Thus, Princess Michael of Kent comes before Princess Alexandra because her husband outranks his own sister as a male.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Did the late Lord Harewood have precedence over Alexandra, although even if he did it likely never happened in practice?
The Late Earl of Harewod had precedence over Princess Alexandra because of his gender, as males come before females.

Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg View Post
The Dowager Countess has no official precedence as her status reflects her late husband, who had no place as a female-line cousin of The Sovereign.
Branchg, first you wrote that the Harewoods had no official rank and precedence because they were female-line and then you put your combined table of ranks in the order of precedence which includes "Sons of Aunts of The Sovereign". Wasn't the late Earl of Harewood one of the Queen's two first cousins coming from her Royal aunt, Mary, The Princess Royal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg View Post
The Sovereign's cousins in the male-line of a monarch take precedence ahead of all female-line cousins as do their wives. Princess Alexandra takes precedence before a wife of a female-line cousin, but not the male-line wives such as The Duchesses of Gloucester and Kent or Princess Michael of Kent.
I disagree. Princess Alexandra does not take precedence over a female-line cousin's wife in the same way as she does not take precedence over the said female-line but male cousin. Males come before females. Thus, Princess Alexandra comes after her brothers and cousin Richard and when the late Lord Harewood lived he also outranked her. Their wives and the latter's widow also come before her.
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  #955  
Old 11-21-2012, 07:20 PM
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Yes, I added it to illustrate where their place would be if so invited by The Sovereign to a state occasion, which would be extremely rare, or for a Coronation.

The late Earl of Harewood was the son of an aunt of a Sovereign (The Princess Royal, The Princess Mary). Princess Alexandra took precedence ahead of The Earl as the daughter of an uncle of The Sovereign (The Prince George, Duke of Kent).
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  #956  
Old 11-21-2012, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
Can someone give me an example where Andrew or Edward have taken precedence over William?
I read the official list but in public it doesn't work that way, William is always ahead of his uncles.
If accompanied by their father, William and Harry take precedence ahead of their uncles as sons of the eldest son of The Sovereign. If they attend an official event without their father, but with Andrew or Edward present, they would follow their uncles as grandsons in the male-line.
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  #957  
Old 11-21-2012, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
If accompanied by their father, William and Harry take precedence ahead of their uncles as sons of the eldest son of The Sovereign. If they attend an official event without their father, but with Andrew or Edward present, they would follow their uncles as grandsons in the male-line.
Okay thanks. Has this scenario ever played out publicly to your knowledge?

The Prince of Wales was not present at the wreath laying ceremony but yet William was the third person to lay a wreath after HM and the Duke of Edinburgh and ahead of Andrew and Edward.
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  #958  
Old 11-21-2012, 07:28 PM
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I disagree. Princess Alexandra does not take precedence over a female-line cousin's wife in the same way as she does not take precedence over the said female-line but male cousin. Males come before females. Thus, Princess Alexandra comes after her brothers and cousin Richard and when the late Lord Harewood lived he also outranked her. Their wives and the latter's widow also come before her.
Males come before females is correct. Alexandra's father, The Prince George, took precedence ahead of his sister, The Princess Royal. Their children's precedence continues down similar lines.

Alexandra is a male-line grandchild of George V and takes precedence ahead of her cousin, The Earl of Harewood, who was a female-line grandson of The King.
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Old 11-21-2012, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
Okay thanks. Has this scenario ever played out publicly to your knowledge?

The Prince of Wales was not present at the wreath laying ceremony but yet William was the third person to lay a wreath after HM and the Duke of Edinburgh and ahead of Andrew and Edward.
Right, but he likely was representing his father at the ceremony by laying the wreath after The Queen and The Duke. William is next in-line, which definitely means there are occasions where he is expected to outrank his uncles as a future King.
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Old 11-21-2012, 07:33 PM
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Branchg, could you put some reference to that there is a differentiation between the first cousins of the Sovereign from the royal line of male-line and those coming from a female-line, like the Lascelleses?
Do the York girls take precedence ahead of Peter Phillips because they are male-line and he is female-? No, because he is a male and that is what matters here.
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