Order of Precedence

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by kbk

Seriously, I don't know why she is always ommited in the discussions about the Order of Precedence, in fact having precedence over Princess Alexandra!

I can conjure quite a vivid image of a conversation between Patricia and Diana on the topic of Precedence.

I guess Patricia is sometimes omitted from Precedence lists because her position as widow (not wife) of the Sovereign's cousin makes it somewhat difficult to definitely say whether she's included in it or not. The same would apply to the Duchesses of Gloucester and Kent should they become widows during the reign of Queen Elizabeth.

[Dman]

Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl

The younger Royals, and I include the Countess of Wessex, in the family are well aware of Catherine's position and I think if anything , they will show dereference and respect to Catherine. Not the other way round. IMO

I agree. Catherine's position is pretty much respected by members of the royal family. I think the royals respect each other's position with the "Firm."

[Molly2101]

Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl

The younger Royals, and I include the Countess of Wessex, in the family are well aware of Catherine's position and I think if anything , they will show dereference and respect to Catherine. Not the other way round. IMO

That is probably true, but I don't see Sophie curtseying to Catherine or Camilla until they are Queen Consort.

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by Molly2101

That is probably true, but I don't see Sophie curtseying to Catherine or Camilla until they are Queen Consort.

I agree with you. Furthermore, the younger royals (and I include Kate in their number) seem to have a great deal of respect for older royals, regardless of their position in the Precedence list. For instance, during the Jubilee Lunch for Monarchs Kate actually curtsied to the Duke and Duchess of Gloucester - something she most definitely didn't have to do. And I highly doubt she expect curtseys from Princess Anne, the Wessexes, the Kents, the Gloucesters, Princess Alexandra or other royals who are technically below her precedence-wise.

[Dman]

The main senior royals the family curtsey to is The Queen & Duke of Edinburgh. Sometimes it's just The Queen they curtsey to.

[Queen Penelope]

I always thought that Sophie was ahead of Camilla in the private order?...I remember this being a big deal at the time she and Charles married, and while it didn't make sense why, I thought that the order was Anne, Alexandra, Sophie then Camilla. Something about Anne, Alexandra and Sophie not wanting to curtsey to her or whatever.

Sorry if this had been covered repeatedly...went through the thread, but there's lots to go through and I might have missed it! :)

[Duke-of-Earl]

Look at the photos from the balcony at BP during the jubilee. Thats is all you need to know who is of the greatest importance in the BRF

[Queen Penelope]

Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl

Look at the photos from the balcony at BP during the jubilee. Thats is all you need to know who is of the greatest importance in the BRF

That's true, but in private, it's a different story, right?

[Duke-of-Earl]

[QUOTE=Queen Penelope;1470564]That's true, but in private, it's a different story, right?[/QUOTE

Yes private and public are different

[Artemisia]

Sophie is below Camilla in both Official and Private Orders of Precedence, and that's been the case ever since Camilla married Prince Charles in 2005.

In the Official Order of Precedence, Camilla (as wife of the Prince of Wales) is the second Lady in the Kingdom after the Queen herself.
In the Private Order of Precedence, Camilla is below only Princesses by blood - Anne, Beatrice, Eugenie, Louise (*) and Alexandra, but still ahead of Sophie.

The Official Order of Precedence
- Queen Elizabeth (The Queen)
- The Duchess of Cornwall (the wife of the Sovereign's eldest son)
- The Countess of Wessex (the wife of the Sovereign's younger son)
- The Princess Royal (the Sovereign's daughter)
- The Duchess of Cambridge (the wife of the Sovereign's grandson)
- Autumn Phillips (the wife of the Sovereign's grandson)
- Princess Beatrice (the Sovereign's granddaughter)
- Princess Eugenie (the Sovereign's granddaughter)
- Lady Louise (the Sovereign's granddaughter)
- Zara Phillips (the Sovereign's granddaughter)
- Lady Serena Stanhope (Wife of the Sovereign's nephew)
- Lady Sarah Chatto (Sovereign's niece)
- Birgitte, Duchess of Gloucester (Wife of the Sovereign's cousin)
- Katharine, Duchess of Kent (Wife of the Sovereign's cousin)
- Princess Michael of Kent (Wife of the Sovereign's cousin)
- Princess Alexandra, The Honourable Lady Ogilvy (Sovereign's cousin)

The Private Order of Precedence
- Queen Elizabeth (the Sovereign)
- Princess Anne (British Princess by birth)
- Princess Beatrice (British Princess by birth)
- Princess Eugenie (British Princess by birth)
- Lady Louise (British Princess by birth) *
- Princess Alexandra (British Princess by birth)
- Camilla, The Duchess of Cornwall (British Princess by marriage)
- Sophie, The Countess of Wessex (British Princess by marriage)
- Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge (British Princess by marriage)
- Autumn Phillips
- Zara Phillips

* Assuming we accept Lady Louise is a Princess by birth (as per Letters Patent 1917), despite not using the title.

[Kit]

I don't know if Sophie is ahead of Camilla in the private order. I seem to recall a story about Sophie having been decorated with the Family Order and the press made a great deal about it back then. I don't even know if Diana ever received the Family Order ...
But it is still my understanding HM herself and the Duke of Edinburgh are still the members of the greatest importance of BRF.

Thanks Artemisia you were faster!

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by Kit

I don't know if Sophie is ahead of Camilla in the private order. I seem to recall a story about Sophie having been decorated with the Family Order and the press made a great deal about it back then. I don't even know if Diana ever received the Family Order ...

Diana did receive the Royal Family Order of Queen Elizabeth, although Sarah never did.
Sophie received her Family Order in 2004, 5 years after her marriage to Prince Edward.
Camilla received her Family Order in 2007, 2 years after her marriage to Prince Charles.

You are perhaps confusing the Family Order with Royal Victorian Order, which neither Diana, nor Sarah ever received.
Sophie got hers in 2010 (11 years after her marriage) and Camilla - in 2012 (7 years after her marriage).

[Kit]

Royal Victorian Order that's it! Thanks again. :-)

[Artemisia]

Always welcome, ladies.
I just need an excuse to talk about precedence, ranking, titles and styles.

[kbk]

Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl

Look at the photos from the balcony at BP during the jubilee. Thats is all you need to know who is of the greatest importance in the BRF

Well, if that's true what about Princess Michael then?
If you look at the Balcony appearance, the Queen, her Duke and the Wales family are coming first, of course, but later it is just a matter of how pushy are those who stand there and how thy relocate, which doors they enter and with whom they are chatting.

[Warren]

I believe the "photos from the Balcony of Buckingham Palace" that Duke-of-Earl is referring to are these:

WENN Photo Library - Search Results

...showing the inner circle of the Royal Family.

[Dman]

At some point Catherine will also be given The Royal Family Order of Queen Elizabeth II but it won't be announced. We just have to wait and see Catherine show up at an official dinner or State Banquet to see if she had recieved the order.

The late Princess of Wales was given the Order by The Queen but I never understodd why she wasn't given any other official Order by Her Majesty. She was The Princess of Wales for 16 years and never been invested in other British Order. Camilla was made Dame Grand Cross of The Royal Victorian Order just after 7 years of marriage.

This kind of thing puzzles me.

[NGalitzine]

Well they did separate after 11 years, and we know things were not good for sometime before that so maybe HM did not see the point in decorating a person she felt was not going to last.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Queen Penelope

I always thought that Sophie was ahead of Camilla in the private order?...I remember this being a big deal at the time she and Charles married, and while it didn't make sense why, I thought that the order was Anne, Alexandra, Sophie then Camilla. Something about Anne, Alexandra and Sophie not wanting to curtsey to her or whatever.

Camilla is fourth in the private order of precedence for females. The Queen, The Princess Royal and Princess Alexandra all take precedence ahead of her, but she takes precedence ahead of all others as the wife of the heir to the throne, including Sophie, Beatrice, Louise, Catherine, etc.

The Queen placed Camilla fourth at court due to her decision to be styled as Duchess of Cornwall, rather than Princess of Wales. She felt her daughter and her cousin, as Princesses of the Blood, should take precedence ahead of a royal Duchess, even though Camilla is technically Princess of Wales as well.

[Duke-of-Earl]

Unlike in other Royal Families, orders and titles are very difficult to come by in Britain and must be earned in the eyes of HM. Since the 1300s there have been 1000 Knights of the Garter, The Order of St Olav in Norway (Their highest honour) which has been around for 200 years has over 5000 recipients. Mary Donaldson's father was made a knight of the Order of the Dannebrog. Imagine Mr Middleton being made a GCVO on the eve of his daughters marriage??? HM makes a person work for it