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  #701  
Old 06-27-2012, 11:39 PM
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[QUOTE=NGalitzine;1435883]
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Originally Posted by texankitcat View Post

After his abdication HRH The Prince Edward, Duke of Windsor reverted the the rank of youngest son of a monarch. Her Grace the Duchess of Windsor had no royal rank or precedence but at best would have been the widow of the Queens youngest uncle so would have come after Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester.

He could never revert to being the youngest son since he was the eldest son of the Monarch, which is how he became King Edward VIII. His positon as the first born of 4 brothers and 1 sister was not changed when he abdecated, since no one could strip him of his birth date. Therefore, he also could not be placed as the youngest uncle of Queen Elizabeth since he was and always would be her oldest uncle having been first born. However, he did abdecate his titles, his HRH status and any rights to the throne. King George VI granted him the title as well as the HRH status after the abdecation.

As for Wallis, the only status she was afforded as Edward's wife within the Royal Family was after his death when she stayed at Buckingham Palace as his widow for his funeral and then after her death when she given a modest royal funeral and laid to rest at Frogmore next to the Duke of Windsor.
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  #702  
Old 06-28-2012, 12:09 AM
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[QUOTE=texankitcat;1436038]
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post


He could never revert to being the youngest son since he was the eldest son of the Monarch, which is how he became King Edward VIII. His positon as the first born of 4 brothers and 1 sister was not changed when he abdicated, since no one could strip him of his birth date. Therefore, he also could not be placed as the youngest uncle of Queen Elizabeth since he was and always would be her oldest uncle having been first born. However, he did abdicate his titles, his HRH status and any rights to the throne. King Albert VI granted him the title as well as the HRH status after the abdication.

As for Wallis, the only status she was afforded as Edward's wife within the Royal Family was after his death when she stayed at Buckingham Palace as his widow for his funeral and then after her death when she given a modest royal funeral and laid to rest at Frogmore next to the Duke of Windsor.

What I think was meant was that his precedence was that of the youngest son - so instead of being first of his brothers after the abdication, if he and his brothers were altogether his precedence was behind the Duke of Kent and not before him as his birth order would have placed him.

After he abdicated he actually had no precedence as he wasn't able to take the precedence of the eldest son of the monarch so George VI gave him the precedence behind The Duke of Kent but ahead of descendents of Edward VII etc.

Rank was probably the wrong word - but precedence.
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  #703  
Old 06-28-2012, 02:31 AM
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Why are people SO upset that Kate has to curtsey to Beatrice & Eugenie?

It is common sense and logical. She is the newest member. It has always been by generation blood first.

I think there is some confusion over curtseying vs lining up.

IMO.
Camilla regardless of whether Charles is in the room or not would curtsey to the Queen, Princess Alexandra and Princess Anne.

If Charles is there, she enters and exits the room after the Queen.

Kate is no different.

Personally I think the daily mail had it wrong, Sophie outrank Kate in the curtsey business. Look at the Jubilee concert seating.

Princess Anne and Prince Charles on either side of the Queen with Prince Andrew next to Camilla.
Sophie is in the next row directly behind the Queen.

If you look at the troop the colours, through the years you will see they move around.

PBS just air the Monarchy at Work; it showed behind the scenes of them before going on the balcony, unfortunately I only saw the tail end. It was for 2006 so Camilla was missing because of the death of her father. It showed them greeting each other, so I didn't notice if there were any curtsey.

I believe they only curtsey the 1st time they meet that day so most of the curtseying is done in private.
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  #704  
Old 06-28-2012, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
The Official Order of Precedence for women in 1980 looked like this:
- Queen Elizabeth II (the Sovereign)
- Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother (Queen Dowager)
- The Princess Anne, Princess Royal (the Sovereign's daughter)
- The Princess Margaret, Countess of Snowdon (the Sovereign's sister)
- Wallis, Duchess of Windsor *
- Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester (wife of the Sovereign's uncle)
- The Lady Sarah Armstrong-Jones (the Sovereign's niece)
- The Duchess of Gloucester (wife of Sovereign's cousin)
- The Duchess of Kent (wife of Sovereign's cousin)
- Princess Michael of Kent (wife of Sovereign's cousin)
- Patricia Lascelles, Countess of Harewood (wife of Sovereign's cousin)
- The Honourable Elizabeth Lascelles (wife of Sovereign's cousin)
- Her Royal Highness Princess Alexandra, The Honourable Mrs Angus Ogilvy (the Sovereign's cousin)
What about Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone, whose a great-niece the Queen was?

The Duke of Windsor was the King's (George VI's) first brother and the Queen's (Elizabeth II's) first paternal uncle and nothing could change that and after his abdication he held precedence as such. And because a wife takes precedence of her husband, Wallis ranked as the King's first sister-in law and later still first among the in-law aunts of the Queen. Just like Artemisia said. :]
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  #705  
Old 06-28-2012, 06:58 AM
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After the abdication Edward VIII had no precedence because he ceased to exist in terms of the laws of succession etc. He was given the precedence behind his younger brothers as they were still in the line of succession and he wasn't.

It would have been unthinkable to have the third in line to the throne have to follow his abdicated brother anywhere so The Dukes of Gloucester and Kent were ahead of him in precedence.

As the only time it came into effect was at Queen Mary's funeral where her three surviving sons walked in a line it never really came into effect publicly but he couldn't take precedence over those higher in the line of succession then he could but he also couldn't be completely removed as he was still the son of a monarch.

There was even an arguement as to whether or not, having abdicated, he could resume his former status of being a prince - which it was decided he could as the son of a monarch but precedence is different and it not only linked to the personal relationship to the monarch but also to the line of succession. Yes he still had to be given a precedence but he couldn't have the precedence of his father's eldest son as he had given up that right when he abdicated - the precedence of his father's eldest son was that of the King but having decided he didn't want that he had to be given official precedence, not automatic.
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  #706  
Old 06-28-2012, 09:20 AM
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I don't agree with you. He could not renounce his relation to the King, whose first brother he was and nothing could really change this. He abdicated and lost his royal status, style and titles but he became the eldest brother of the King. And the order of precedence among the RF is all about direct relations to the Sovereign. So I think he was formally placed before his royal brothers, even if he was no longer in line to the throne. It was because he was the first brother of the King and later uncle of the Queen, not that he was a son of a previous monarch.
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  #707  
Old 06-28-2012, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbk View Post
What about Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone, whose a great-niece the Queen was?
As the Sovereign's great-aunt, her precedence was below the ladies I mentioned, and then some (including wives of the Queen's other unles, and her other aunts by laws of primogeniture). Her position would have been about 18th in the precedence list of 1980.
Of course, as the longest-living British Princess by blood and Queen Victoria's last surviving grandchild, Alice was always given a rank and precedence that were much higher, but that was only a mark of respect.

Quote:
The Duke of Windsor was the King's (George VI's) first brother and the Queen's (Elizabeth II's) first paternal uncle and nothing could change that and after his abdication he held precedence as such. And because a wife takes precedence of her husband, Wallis ranked as the King's first sister-in law and later still first among the in-law aunts of the Queen. Just like Artemisia said. :]
Wallis didn't have a place in the precedence list; I wrote her name in grey to signify that.
Unlike other Princesses by marriage, she did not share her husband's rank, precedence and styles.

The ranking of the Duke of Windsor was somewhat unclear as well. it would have been logical to assume he was ranked above his younger brothers (save for the new King). Then again, his abdication was so unprecedented there was no clear-cut template to base his position on. Once he abdicated, he reverted to having the styles, titles and precedence he had at the moment of his birth and as a son of a Sovereign - that of British Prince. Now, I do believe that abdicated or not, he did have higher precedence than the Dukes of Gloucester and Kent; however, that is my personal opinion and I cannot counter Iluvbertie's opinion by actual evidence.
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  #708  
Old 06-28-2012, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
After the abdication Edward VIII had no precedence because he ceased to exist in terms of the laws of succession etc. He was given the precedence behind his younger brothers as they were still in the line of succession and he wasn't...
Thank you Bertie. That is how I understood the terms of the abdication as well. My understanding is once he abdecated he was stripped of all royal privilege, titles and standing within the Royal family and only at the pleasure of the King was he granted the title, HRH status and financial support afterwards since he could not be supported by the civil list. My understanding is also that with the condition of financial support from the King, he had to leave England and would only be allowed back with permission from the King. Therefore IMO, any formal precedence for himself or his wife would have been unnecessary in Royal Court or within the RF. If there was an official precedence list after his abdecation, I have not come across it. Please correct me if you are aware of one.
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  #709  
Old 06-28-2012, 10:22 AM
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I don't agree with you. He could not renounce his relation to the King, whose first brother he was and nothing could really change this...
Yes, he was the eldest brother of the King, but since the order of precedence is at the discretion of the monarch, being the eldest brother would not obligate the current monarch to place him ahead of his younger brothers who never forfeited their rights or place in that line. Considering the embarassment and bitterness of the abdecation within the Royal Family, most particularly felt by Albert who never wanted to e placed in the position he found himself, I seriously doubt Edward would have been given any consideration as the eldest born in the order of precedence. The only rights he was given after the abdecation were given in order to protect the crown....not out of respect for his position as first born.
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  #710  
Old 06-28-2012, 10:56 AM
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At the unveiling of the Queen Mary Memorial in 1967 both the Duke and Duchess of Windsor were in attendance and they were seated after the Duke and Duchess of Gloucester. I don't believe Princess Marina was in attendance and obviously the Duke of Kent died during WWII, so the Windsors were seated as if he had been the youngest brother.
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  #711  
Old 06-28-2012, 12:27 PM
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Princess Marina and the Duke and Duchess of Kent were present but were seated on the other side.
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  #712  
Old 06-28-2012, 03:23 PM
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.

Regarding curtsying, I think it is pretty simple :
HRH curtsies to HM!

I've never seen an HRH member of the BRF to curtsy to another HRH member of the BRF, not even to Prince Philip! If you have some pictures to prove me wrong, please post them!

I admit that precedence may be trickier, but being put behind somebody on the precedence list, it doesn't mean that you have to curtsy to that person, unless he/she is an HM.
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  #713  
Old 06-28-2012, 03:41 PM
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I don't agree with you. He could not renounce his relation to the King, whose first brother he was and nothing could really change this...
You are correct. The Duke's precedence, which was discussed by the Baldwin Cabinet and agreed upon by George VI, was before The Dukes of Kent and Gloucester as he was the eldest brother of the King.

Since George VI had an heir and spare to the throne, the succession through his line was secure and that was considered to be the main issue, even though The Duke was no longer in the line of succession versus his brothers who were.

As far as his royal rank and style once he abdicated, this was automatic as the 1917 Letters Patent provided he was "HRH The Prince Edward" as a son of George V. While it's true George VI later argued he had no right to be HRH upon abdicating, this could only have been taken away with the issuance of new Letters Patent specifically removing his right to be HRH, which was never done.
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  #714  
Old 06-28-2012, 03:44 PM
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As we can see by the attendance of the Duke and Duchess of Windsor at the unveiling of the Queen Mary Memorial he was actually placed after his younger bother the Duke of Gloucester.
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  #715  
Old 06-28-2012, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
At the unveiling of the Queen Mary Memorial in 1967 both the Duke and Duchess of Windsor were in attendance and they were seated after the Duke and Duchess of Gloucester. I don't believe Princess Marina was in attendance and obviously the Duke of Kent died during WWII, so the Windsors were seated as if he had been the youngest brother.
His precedence was downgraded after the death of George VI because he was now an uncle of The Sovereign, rather than a brother. By 1952, it was clear he was never going to live in England again as an active member of the family, so it made sense he would come after his brother, The Duke of Gloucester, at court.

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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
As we can see by the attendance of the Duke and Duchess of Windsor at the unveiling of the Queen Mary Memorial he was actually placed after his younger bother the Duke of Gloucester.
Yes, but as I said above, his precedence inevitably was downgraded due to the fact he and The Duchess were not allowed to live in England or accepted as members of the royal family, especially with Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth still alive.
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  #716  
Old 06-28-2012, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
His precedence was downgraded after the death of George VI because he was now an uncle of The Sovereign, rather than a brother. By 1952, it was clear he was never going to live in England again as an active member of the family, so it made sense he would come after his brother, The Duke of Gloucester, at court.
So he essentially had precedence as the younger brother.
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  #717  
Old 06-28-2012, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by andrew View Post
Regarding curtsying, I think it is pretty simple :
HRH curtsies to HM!

I've never seen an HRH member of the BRF to curtsy to another HRH member of the BRF, not even to Prince Philip! If you have some pictures to prove me wrong, please post them!

I admit that precedence may be trickier, but being put behind somebody on the precedence list, it doesn't mean that you have to curtsy to that person, unless he/she is an HM.
Yes, you are right.

The order of precedence at court is simply a list of who goes first or enters last during royal events that are not official state occasions. It has nothing to do with curtsies or bows today, although it used to be strictly followed with that as well. But that hasn't happened since George V's reign.

HRH is HRH. It doesn't matter what your title or style is as they hold equal rank to each other. The only exception is Prince Philip, who as the Consort of The Queen, is given precedence and place next to The Sovereign. They do occasionally curtsey or bow to Philip as they do with HM in private.
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  #718  
Old 06-28-2012, 04:06 PM
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So he essentially had precedence as the younger brother.
Yes. I think the initial decisions were based on the assumption, before the Act of Abdication officially was passed, that The Duke would take his place as a member of the royal family and help his brother out with his new duties.

But as we know, things went rapidly downhill between the brothers (mainly over money) and that didn't happen.
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  #719  
Old 06-28-2012, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
As the Sovereign's great-niece, her precedence was below the ladies I mentioned, and then some (including wives of the Queen's great-nephews, and her other great-nieces by laws of primogeniture). Her position would have been about 18th in the precedence list of 1980.
Of course, as the longest-living British Princess by blood and Queen Victoria's last surviving grandchild, Alice was always given a rank and precedence that were much higher, but that was only a mark of respect.
If you by Sovereign mean queen Elizabeth, the princess Alice could impossibly be her great-niece, as she was a grandchild of queen Victoria!
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  #720  
Old 06-28-2012, 04:31 PM
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If you by Sovereign mean queen Elizabeth, the princess Alice could impossibly be her great-niece, as she was a grandchild of queen Victoria!
Alice was married the Queen Mary's brother, so by marriage she was aunt to George VI and great aunt to Elizabeth II. She was , of course, also granddaughter of Queen Victoria and a Princess of the United Kingdom in her own right.
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