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  #681  
Old 06-26-2012, 08:48 PM
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To bow or curtsey, and when, certainly has raised our conscience. The need to wait for another to go first before being allowed to enter a room or go down a staircase, depending on who you are, and whom you are with or who they are with, seems so complicated.
Remembering to stop and look both ways is a good rule to follow before crossing a road or, apparently, the royalty.
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  #682  
Old 06-26-2012, 09:12 PM
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I agree with the earlier poster who suggested that they make an app for this. It would save so much time! I also agree with Artemesia that there is no reason for 2 Orders of Precedence (public and private) and with EIIR that the idea of there being one for men and one for women is stupid. It's not as if they Queen will cry "Off with their head! if Kate refuses/forgets to curtsey to Eugenie, or Sophie forgets/refuses to curtsey to Princess Anne for example.
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  #683  
Old 06-27-2012, 03:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baroness of Books View Post
I wonder if the royals have to carry a cheat sheet on them to consult with all these variable scenarios! "Uh, oh, Princess Beatrice is in the room and Hubby's not with me, let me consult the notes!"
Oh, that would be my way of dealing with something like that . The order is almost as confusing as the rules in the braille and nemeth codes (the codes that are used for literary and math transcriptions respectively). I have cheat sheets for both, and I'm not afraid to whip them out, even when a supervisor is in close proximity (happened quite a lot during student teaching). Good thinking, Baroness .

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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Someone should set up a system according to a deck of cards and what beats what. Give them all little pins to wear and if one's pin beats another, the lower person curtseys or bows. Now that is what I would call a real Royal Flush.
Classic .
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  #684  
Old 06-27-2012, 06:08 AM
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I dont understand, what does it matter if Prince William is with her or not? if he is in the room, it improves her standing? For some reason, I am not getting it.
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  #685  
Old 06-27-2012, 06:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bethaliz6894 View Post
I dont understand, what does it matter if Prince William is with her or not? if he is in the room, it improves her standing? For some reason, I am not getting it.
Welcome to the club. I don't get it either.
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  #686  
Old 06-27-2012, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bethaliz6894 View Post
I dont understand, what does it matter if Prince William is with her or not? if he is in the room, it improves her standing? For some reason, I am not getting it.
In the BRF women take their precedence from their husbands, so the way the enter into a room depends on how far their husband is in the line of succession. However there are four alternative orders of precedence, plus the two official rankings, as it differs depending on who's in the room, and the situation.
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  #687  
Old 06-27-2012, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
The British HRH's do curtsey to each other according to the rules as we saw on the Balcony of BP at Trooping - HRH The Duchess of Cambridge curtseyed to HRH The Duke of Edinburgh.

We have heard that Anne refused to curtsey to Diana implying that Anne was expected to curtsey to her new sister-in-law.
But Diana, other than most of the brides of the heirs before Charles, was not a princess born. Thus Anne should have outranked her when they met one-by-one. I believe all this "new" Order of Precedence wants to make clear that on our day and age, when commoners can become the future queen, a princess of the Blood Royal still is something special. It is unfortunate that Eugenie and Beatrice don't have yet shown that they deserve this reference personally but I understand that when "at court" - that is: on official functions in the presence of HM, they should be referenced to a blood members of the Royal Family and accorded the ceremonial greeting for Royal Princesses. There will be very rare occasions when Catherine attends such an event without her husband present. And William "present" means he has to be "there" during the formal greetings, after that he is considered to be there even if he is not in the ´room at that moment.

But that doesn't mean Catherine has to curtsey whenever she meets Beatrice of Eugenie in private and William is not there. For then she is not "at court". While in the presence of HM, she is "at court", even when she comes to a private tea.
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  #688  
Old 06-27-2012, 07:27 AM
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There've been a couple of media comment that this is sure to make Prince William angry etc....hello, do you think the Queen didn't make this known prior to it being public?? I'm sure there was time to sort out any issues that might of been raised by other members of the family, prior to public knowledge.


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  #689  
Old 06-27-2012, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pranter
There've been a couple of media comment that this is sure to make Prince William angry etc....hello, do you think the Queen didn't make this known prior to it being public?? I'm sure there was time to sort out any issues that might of been raised by other members of the family, prior to public knowledge.

LaRae
We don't even know if this curtsey thing is real let alone of it was announced to royals beforehand. It really makes no difference to life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baroness of Books
Yes, since they are both royal because of their marriages.
Hang on, so of Tim has to bow to Camilla because they're royal by marriage, they should curtesy to him? :S
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  #690  
Old 06-27-2012, 10:10 AM
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[QUOTE=Queen Camilla;1300364]Diana was never 2nd after the Queen.

Diana depending on the year and in public vs private she may have been the lowest person on the totem pole. She might not even have rank high enough to get a curtesy from other members of the family.

The order of precedence was not created because of Camilla. It has always existed. Camilla is 4th and if Diana was still alive and married to POW she would be 4th.




Order of precedence 1981 IMO
  1. Queen Elizabeth II
  2. Queen Elizabeth
  3. Duchess of Windsor
  4. Princess Alice
  5. Princess Margaret
  6. Princess Alexandra
  7. Princess Anne
  8. Diana
How is it that the Duchess of Windsor would even be on this list? She was not accorded the rank of HRH at the time of marriage to the Former King Edward III, nor was she ever invited to court on official, formal or private occassions with the exception of The Duke of Windsor's funeral. Nor was she a mother of a titled prince or princess. Any consideration the Queen extended to her was based on being married to her Uncle who was a former King . However, officially she would not be accorded any rank or precedence within the Royal Family.

Am I missing something?
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  #691  
Old 06-27-2012, 10:38 AM
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Perhaps because The Duchess of Windsor was married to a Royal Duke, not just a plain Duke?
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  #692  
Old 06-27-2012, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bethaliz6894 View Post
I dont understand, what does it matter if Prince William is with her or not? if he is in the room, it improves her standing? For some reason, I am not getting it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Welcome to the club. I don't get it either.
British Princesses by marriage (such as Camilla, Kate and Sophie) taken their ranks and precedence from their husbands.
Most of the times, the ranking and precedence is so clear (the official one, at least) the spouses' presence doesn't actually change much. However, sometimes it does matter; for instance, when Prince Charles is present, Camilla outranks every lady in the Kingdom but the Queen. If he is not present, then the Duchess is still the first lady after Her Majesty in official precedence list, but in private one, her position may change in regards to Princesses by blood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
But Diana, other than most of the brides of the heirs before Charles, was not a princess born. Thus Anne should have outranked her when they met one-by-one. I believe all this "new" Order of Precedence wants to make clear that on our day and age, when commoners can become the future queen, a princess of the Blood Royal still is something special. It is unfortunate that Eugenie and Beatrice don't have yet shown that they deserve this reference personally but I understand that when "at court" - that is: on official functions in the presence of HM, they should be referenced to a blood members of the Royal Family and accorded the ceremonial greeting for Royal Princesses. There will be very rare occasions when Catherine attends such an event without her husband present. And William "present" means he has to be "there" during the formal greetings, after that he is considered to be there even if he is not in the ´room at that moment.

But that doesn't mean Catherine has to curtsey whenever she meets Beatrice of Eugenie in private and William is not there. For then she is not "at court". While in the presence of HM, she is "at court", even when she comes to a private tea.
Anne may be a Princess by blood, but Diana most definitely outranked her as the Princess of Wales. Diana was immediately after the Queen and the Queen Mother in the precedence list - both private and official ones (which were, at the time, identical).

Completely agree about Kate's situation.
One of the reasons the private precedence list annoys me so much is that there isn't really any conceivable situation when it may actually be applied and we'll see, say, Camilla or Kate curtseying to Anne or Beatrice. A century ago it would have probably be relevant, but in our days it just adds confusing to the already pretty confusing topic of rank and precedence.
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  #693  
Old 06-27-2012, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by texankitcat View Post
How is it that the Duchess of Windsor would even be on this list? She was not accorded the rank of HRH at the time of marriage to the Former King Edward III, nor was she ever invited to court on official, formal or private occassions with the exception of The Duke of Windsor's funeral. Nor was she a mother of a titled prince or princess. Any consideration the Queen extended to her was based on being married to her Uncle who was a former King . However, officially she would not be accorded any rank or precedence within the Royal Family.

Am I missing something?
You are not missing anything; even if the Duchess of Windsor hadn't been denied pretty much all of her husband's styles and titles (as well as rank and precedence), she would have been merely the widow of the Sovereign's uncle - and as such would have been near the bottom of the Precedence list.

The Official Order of Precedence for women in 1980 looked like this:
- Queen Elizabeth II (the Sovereign)
- Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother (Queen Dowager)
- The Princess Anne, Princess Royal (the Sovereign's daughter)
- The Princess Margaret, Countess of Snowdon (the Sovereign's sister)
- Wallis, Duchess of Windsor *
- Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester (wife of the Sovereign's uncle)
- The Lady Sarah Armstrong-Jones (the Sovereign's niece)
- The Duchess of Gloucester (wife of Sovereign's cousin)
- The Duchess of Kent (wife of Sovereign's cousin)
- Princess Michael of Kent (wife of Sovereign's cousin)
- Patricia Lascelles, Countess of Harewood (wife of Sovereign's cousin)
- The Honourable Elizabeth Lascelles (wife of Sovereign's cousin)
- Her Royal Highness Princess Alexandra, The Honourable Mrs Angus Ogilvy (the Sovereign's cousin)

* The place Wallis would have occupied under normal circumstances, as wife (widow) of the Sovereign's uncle.
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  #694  
Old 06-27-2012, 11:14 AM
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It has been written many times in this thread: I write it again.

the members of the british royal family do all curtsey/bow to The Queen and Prince Phillipe - (and they all bowed and curtseyed/bowed to Queen Mum) they do NOT cursey / bow to each other.

The order of precedence defines the seeting, the order of who is greeting whom etc.
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  #695  
Old 06-27-2012, 12:05 PM
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I think this list is mainly used for seating arrangements nowadays. It's just updated when a new member of joins the RF.
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  #696  
Old 06-27-2012, 12:08 PM
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Granted, that's mostly true.
The strict protocol rules might have been used a century or even 50 years ago, but nowadays no one really bows or curtseys to anyone both the King and/or Queen.

Precedence is indeed mainly important for sitting arrangements, arrival order, processions (who walks ahead of whom), and similar issues - but of little relevance for everyday life.
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  #697  
Old 06-27-2012, 12:11 PM
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Even republics have order of precedence.

United States order of precedence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  #698  
Old 06-27-2012, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
Hang on, so of Tim has to bow to Camilla because they're royal by marriage, they should curtesy to him? :S
But the reverse isn't true when wed to a female royal. A male doesn't share his wife's title; somewhat of a discriminatory point. Such exceptions exist i.e. Daniel Westerling being created a prince of Sweden on his marriage to Victoria, so he became a titled royal at that point.
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  #699  
Old 06-27-2012, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by KittyAtlanta View Post
Perhaps because The Duchess of Windsor was married to a Royal Duke, not just a plain Duke?
Yes, but that didn't matter. The Letters Patent issued by George VI in 1937 attibuted the style of HRH and the title of The Duke of Windsor to him alone. Alhtough she shared the title as his wife, she could not share the HRH status, nor would any offspring of his be able to inherit the title or HRH status or be placed in the line of succession. Therefore, her status was wife and widow only.
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  #700  
Old 06-27-2012, 03:00 PM
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[QUOTE=texankitcat;1435773]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Camilla View Post
Diana was never 2nd after the Queen.

Diana depending on the year and in public vs private she may have been the lowest person on the totem pole. She might not even have rank high enough to get a curtesy from other members of the family.

The order of precedence was not created because of Camilla. It has always existed. Camilla is 4th and if Diana was still alive and married to POW she would be 4th.






Order of precedence 1981 IMO
  1. Queen Elizabeth II
  2. Queen Elizabeth
  3. Duchess of Windsor
  4. Princess Alice
  5. Princess Margaret
  6. Princess Alexandra
  7. Princess Anne
  8. Diana
How is it that the Duchess of Windsor would even be on this list? She was not accorded the rank of HRH at the time of marriage to the Former King Edward III, nor was she ever invited to court on official, formal or private occassions with the exception of The Duke of Windsor's funeral. Nor was she a mother of a titled prince or princess. Any consideration the Queen extended to her was based on being married to her Uncle who was a former King . However, officially she would not be accorded any rank or precedence within the Royal Family.

Am I missing something?
After his abdication HRH The Prince Edward, Duke of Windsor reverted the the rank of youngest son of a monarch. Her Grace the Duchess of Windsor had no royal rank or precedence but at best would have been the widow of the Queens youngest uncle so would have come after Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester.
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