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  #661  
Old 06-26-2012, 02:08 PM
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It's just a list! People need to calm down. Do people honestly believe Kate will curtsey to Beatrice and Eugenie. For those moaning about the wording "Blood Princesses", they are aren't they not "Blood Princesses".
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  #662  
Old 06-26-2012, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by kbk View Post
Both Camilla and Kate take their husband's precedence when they are with them. It's because their place and rank is derived strictly from their marriage to them and not by anything else. In case of Princess Anne and other royal princesses by birth, their rights, rank and place in the order of precedence come from their birth, just like the husbands' of Camilla and Kate. Theoretically, Princess Eugenie married to her cousin Prince William (well, it would not be unusual in this family would outrank her elder sister because of the rank held by her husband. But, according to the rules of Private Precedence or without her husband in attendance, she should place herself after Beatrice.
Camilla and Kate could be even the Byzantine Empress and the Empress of the Holy Roman Empire in the future but it really does not matter today. Their husbands are who they are now and they are their present wives and have rank and precedence according to that status. Period.
Well, every country have their peculiarities.

Having said that. Too bad if a high ranking royal suddenly finds him/herself demoted in relation to a newcommer in the family. They just have to learn to live with it. Like thousands of other royals before them.

I don't envy the men who are going to marry Beatrice and Eugenie. Most men have problems enough remembering their own birthdays let alone details about everyone else - in fact that's why we marry, so that our wives can keep track of that - but imagine standing there trying to remember: "What am I in relation to whoever is standing in front of me and when should I bow or not? Hmm, better always give way, just to be on the safe side. I seriously need a beer"!
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  #663  
Old 06-26-2012, 02:47 PM
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Confused? Don't worry!, like someone in another thread said, there's (probably) an app for that!!
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  #664  
Old 06-26-2012, 02:55 PM
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Or crib notes!
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  #665  
Old 06-26-2012, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Princess Peach View Post
I've been reading through the thread trying to makes heads or tails of the order of precedence and whether it makes sense.

Several things come to mind;

I have an issue with woman who married into a royal family having to curtsy to princesses by birth. I personally don't care on behalf of the women themselves, I won't lose sleep over Kate curtsying to Beatrice or some such nonsense. However, it sends a message to the public that those of "royal blood" are more important than those who just married in, the commoners. That's arcane and out of place with 21st century notions of fairness. Being royal is a privilege (which comes with a fair share of duties). It is NOT a right in the 21st century. I personally think that members of the BRF should curtsy to the Queen and Princess of Wales. If you don't do away with the rest of it, I also think that members of younger generations, Kate, Beatrice, etc, should curtsy to Alexandra and Anne, or even the Duchess of Gloucester - those women who have given a life of service to the BRF. In terms of status, Kate, Beatrice, Eugenie, Zara should all be on equal footing.

Monarchist as I am, some parts of royal existence is just utter nonsense. This is one of them.
Family tradition is important.

Kate Must Curtsey to 'Blood Princesses' | ABC News Blogs - Yahoo!
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  #666  
Old 06-26-2012, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Yeah, but no matter what way they greet, be it in a form of a bow or a kiss, it's still pretty confusing.

Camilla is married to the heir, why not let her have the place in the Order of Precendence similar to the place her husband has?

The same thing in regards to Kate, let her have a place similar to her husbands. Period.

Both these ladies will eventually stand beside a future monarch, so it's only a matter of time before they take precedence before everybody else anyway.
Both Camilla and Kate enjoy the same precedence as their husbands in the Official Precedence list. That means that Camilla, as wife of the Heir to the Throne, enjoys the highest precedence in the Kingdom among women, after the Queen herself. Kate, as wife of the Queen's grandson, comes after Camilla, Sophie and Anne - just as William comes after Prince Charles, Prince Andrew and Prince Edward.

The Official Precedence list is pretty straightforward and not at all confusing. It's the Private one (that is at will of the Sovereign) that confuses everyone; theoretically, Anne, Beatrice, Eugenie and Alexandra (as Princesses by birth) are above Camilla, Sophie and Kate (Princesses by marriage). That is, unless they are with their husbands, in which case they take precedence from them and still outrank Princesses by birth.

However, just to confuse everyone more, the Buckingham Palace appears to operate some other Precedence list whereby Camilla is first (after the Queen), followed by Kate (and not Sophie), whereas William comes before his uncles.

In short, I wish the Private and Official Precedence lists matched; it would make everything so much easier.
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  #667  
Old 06-26-2012, 04:19 PM
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The 'Blood Princesses' thing bugs me. What really, really bugs me though is that there's one order of precedence when it's just women in the room, but as soon as someone with a penis enters the room it all magically changes! If we're now moving away from male primogeniture in the succession we should move away from this silliness too. Camilla and Kate have the same place in the order of precedence wherever the male members of the royal family happen to be at any given moment.
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  #668  
Old 06-26-2012, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by EIIR View Post
The 'Blood Princesses' thing bugs me. What really, really bugs me though is that there's one order of precedence when it's just women in the room, but as soon as someone with a penis enters the room it all magically changes! If we're now moving away from male primogeniture in the succession we should move away from this silliness too. Camilla and Kate have the same place in the order of precedence wherever the male members of the royal family happen to be at any given moment.
It's not just men versus women: think of Sweden - Prince Daniel takes his rank and precedence from Crown Princess Victoria.
Similarly, if succession rules are changed to Equal Primogeniture in Britain, then should William and Kate's first-born be a girl, her husband will one day take his rank and precedence from her, and so his status will depend on her presence as well.
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  #669  
Old 06-26-2012, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
It's not just men versus women: think of Sweden - Prince Daniel takes his rank and precedence from Crown Princess Victoria.
Similarly, if succession rules are changed to Equal Primogeniture in Britain, then should William and Kate's first-born be a girl, her husband will one day take his rank and precedence from her, and so his status will depend on her presence as well.
Yes, but the difference between Sweden and UK is that Daniel retains his position, even when Victoria is not around.
Not to mention that the SRF are hardly concerned about a Private Order of Precedence, when among themselves. I believe they just kiss eachother on the cheek when they meet.
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  #670  
Old 06-26-2012, 04:42 PM
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Oh, Osipi, you're such a card.
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  #671  
Old 06-26-2012, 04:43 PM
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Yes, but the difference between Sweden and UK is that Daniel retains his position, even when Victoria is not around.
Not to mention that the SRF are hardly concerned about a Private Order of Precedence, when among themselves. I believe they just kiss eachother on the cheek when they meet.
Camilla and Kate retain their positions when Charles and William aren't around on official functions as well. Now that you said it, I don't actually know a circumstance (on official events) when their rank or precedence would suddenly drop or climb up because of their husbands' presence or absence.

And British royals aren't all that stiff at all; they also mostly greet each other with hugs and kisses.
Basically, the precedence is only important for official (mostly, state) events, when arrival and sitting arrangements are important (same as in any royal family), not to mention the ever important "who curtsies to whom?" question. I strongly doubt any of the royals actually remembers private precedence when they are just among themselves. Which is what makes the private order of precedence so obsolete and unnecessary.
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  #672  
Old 06-26-2012, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by EIIR View Post
The 'Blood Princesses' thing bugs me. What really, really bugs me though is that there's one order of precedence when it's just women in the room, but as soon as someone with a penis enters the room it all magically changes! If we're now moving away from male primogeniture in the succession we should move away from this silliness too. Camilla and Kate have the same place in the order of precedence wherever the male members of the royal family happen to be at any given moment.
YES!! Absolutely!
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  #673  
Old 06-26-2012, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
Camilla and Kate retain their positions when Charles and William aren't around on official functions as well. Now that you said it, I don't actually know a circumstance (on official events) when their rank or precedence would suddenly drop or climb up because of their husbands' presence or absence.

And British royals aren't all that stiff at all; they also mostly greet each other with hugs and kisses.
Basically, the precedence is only important for official (mostly, state) events, when arrival and sitting arrangements are important (same as in any royal family), not to mention the ever important "who curtsies to whom?" question. I strongly doubt any of the royals actually remembers private precedence when they are just among themselves. Which is what makes the private order of precedence so obsolete and unnecessary.
Evidentally, it is still necessary for HM, as it does exist.
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  #674  
Old 06-26-2012, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by padams2359

If say Prince Harry forgot something in QE2's desk and later he runs into retrieve it? He just walks in to her study, thinking it was empty, just as the women gathered and they are mid heavy cursing. There is a man there, do they have to start all over again? Times headline, "Princess All Sent Home With Minor Cursting Pile Up.". Apparently two princess whacked heads as they thought they had to Cursty to the other. Mayhem ensued.
Heavy cursing. I love it. . (I know it's a typo ). Smile.
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  #675  
Old 06-26-2012, 06:53 PM
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I meant them all simulatiously quickly curtsying to the proper person to get the whole process over with quickly. Heavy Curtsying session. And thinking about it, the whole thing is done in front of the Queen, at say, the arrival at Sandringham at Christmas, and Balmoral in late summer, then not done again for the remainder of the holiday.
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  #676  
Old 06-26-2012, 08:15 PM
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Does Timothy Laurence have to bow to everyone, even his children who hold no title?
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  #677  
Old 06-26-2012, 08:22 PM
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Does Timothy Laurence have to bow to everyone, even his children who hold no title?
he has no children. Peter and Zara are Mark Phillips and Princess Anne's children.
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  #678  
Old 06-26-2012, 08:31 PM
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I doubt that Timothy would bow to Peter and Zara since they hold no titles and aren't royal.
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  #679  
Old 06-26-2012, 08:36 PM
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he has no children. Peter and Zara are Mark Phillips and Princess Anne's children.
Sorry, I meant step-children. I guess he would have to bow to the York daughters, but would he have to bow to Sophie and Catherine?
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  #680  
Old 06-26-2012, 08:38 PM
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Yes, since they are both royal because of their marriages.
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