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  #641  
Old 06-25-2012, 11:07 PM
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It gets more confusing

Technically, Sarah, Duchess of York, must curtsy to her daughters, HRHs Beatrice and Eugenie... as does HRH Sophie, Countess of Wessex. It's possible that Sophie will have to curtsy to her own children... even if they never choose to go by Prince or Princess. They still are a royal prince and princess. Therefore, if Catherine and William have a child before William ascends to the throne, Catherine will have to curtsy to her own child when William is not present.

We may make much of it, and it may be very important to some members of the Royal Family, but I suspect it becomes 2nd nature.... There is some element of actual courtesy involved when it comes to whether or not Catherine and Camilla curtsy to Anne. Anne is a senior royal, and has been doing the job for a long time. IMHO, she's earned it... as has Princess Alexandra.

I wonder, what with the change in the order of succession, if Princess Anne will be the last Princess Royal. I can't see it being given to the 2nd daughter, when the eldest child is a girl. So maybe it will only appear when the eldest is a boy.
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  #642  
Old 06-25-2012, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Scholastica8 View Post
If you look through old photos, you'll find HRH Elizabeth, Duchess of York (the Queen Mum) curtsying to HRH Mary, the Princess Royal... when the Duke was not with her.
Yes, she would have - as the sovereign's daughters out rank the wives of the sovereign's younger sons - in the absence of the men. Elizabeth Duchess of York was not wife of the heir apparent...
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  #643  
Old 06-26-2012, 08:29 AM
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This article appears in today's Times. The writer is a republican and there are lots of mistakes in it, but I think it demonstrates the stupidity of these orders of precedence and how it makes the royals seem hopelessly out of touch.

Quote:
So who does Kate curtsy to if William is on the loo?

Robert Crampton

The answer is good news for us republicans. No denying it, it’s been a rough old time for us republicans, this last year or so.

That wedding last spring, then Harry touring the West Indies, hanging out with Usain Bolt and practically copping off with Miss Bahamas, then the triumph of the Jubilee, Suggs, Spitfires, street parties and all. Add in the usual seasonal hammer blows of Trooping the Colour and Royal Ascot, and there hasn’t been a great deal around to warm the Cromwellian heart.

Although I can’t help but note that the appeal for us to pay for a new Royal Yacht as a Jubilee gift to the Queen has gone quiet. Perhaps after all there are limits to the British people’s admiration for their monarch.

This weekend, moreover, the roundhead tendency got the first decent break we’ve had in ages. Buckingham Palace, by which I mean the Queen, has updated, in the light of Kate Middleton’s arrival, a document called the Order of Precedence in the royal household. Last revised in 2005 to accommodate Camilla, the Order of Precedence ranks all the members of the Royal Family, Queen at the top of course, the others jostling beneath.

This ranking matters to the Windsors because it clarifies who has to grovel to whom, in the form of a bow or a curtsy. Yes, they bow and curtsy to each other, not just to the Queen, not just for public show, but in private, even when they’re just chillin’ at Balmoral or Sandringham, shooting stuff. Sophie Wessex apparently has to bend the knee to pretty much everyone. Barely ever upright, poor Sophie.

How the Republican soul leaps at this intelligence. First, because it shows how deeply weird this family at the head and heart of our country actually is. Imagine bowing to, say, your brother-in-law whenever he walked into the room. Second because the update downgrades Kate, who is popular, in favour of the “blood princesses,” namely Anne, Beatrice, Eugenie and another one called Alexandra.

Kate, the Queen has made clear, has to curtsy to them. Except when William is present, because then Kate, given the impressive sexism of the monarchy, assumes her husband’s status. So she curtsies to Anne when William’s not there, but not when he is. What Kate does if Anne walks in when William is struggling with constipation in the loo, all too audible but not visible, is anyone’s guess . . . although there’s probably a handbook on the correct protocol somewhere in Windsor Castle.

I wasn’t sure, incidentally, if this Alexandra person is the nice one who does Wimbledon and the FA Cup or the pushy one with the Nazi dad, so I checked, and it turns out she’s neither, she’s just some random cousin of the Queen. I don’t know if Alexandra’s popular or not, but Anne is respected rather than loved and Beatrice and Eugenie are only ever one bad outfit away from total derision. Not fair, perhaps, but then nothing about royalty is fair.

In the Kremlinology of the Windsors (substituting the palace balcony for the roof of the Lenin mausoleum) this Order of Precedence leak looks like Andrew fighting back after he and his girls were sidelined at the Jubilee. Good for him, but still, in terms of the bigger picture, to make Kate curtsy to Beatrice and Eugenie is utter madness.
But curtsy she must, because they’re “blood princesses” and she isn’t, she was born a “commoner”. And right there we see the third reason this ranking news is good for republicans, and not just because those twin chilling phrases sound like something Draco Malfoy or Heinrich Himmler might have come out with.

Very few of us think that who your parents happen to be should determine the rest of your life. Yet that’s not just what the Queen symbolises, that’s what she fervently believes. She has to believe it, it’s the basis of her whole existence. Anything that makes this more obvious is welcome.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinio...cle3456280.ece
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  #644  
Old 06-26-2012, 08:36 AM
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The DM hints that the balcony appearance (with only Charles' family with the Queen) would not have happened had Phillip been there. Phillip wants the entire family.

The article suggests that the line-up reflects Charles' desire to send his siblings and cousins a message.


I think the whole curtseying business is very old-fashioned and should be eliminated.
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  #645  
Old 06-26-2012, 08:47 AM
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Where did the DM get that info? Since it's been know for weeks before the jubilee that there would only be 7 people on the balcony. The only reason why there were six was because Philip was in the hospital.
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  #646  
Old 06-26-2012, 09:07 AM
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Is this true???

Kate Middleton: Die Queen zwingt sie in die Knie | Royal Girl - Yahoo! omg! Deutschland

Google Fordító
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  #647  
Old 06-26-2012, 09:44 AM
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Honest answer: we've got no idea.
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  #648  
Old 06-26-2012, 11:17 AM
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Ah, an almost exact copy of that story has hit the Danish media as well. Billed-Bladet - Kate skal neje for svigerfamilien

Bizar regel: Kate tvunget til at neje for svigerfamilien - Royale | www.bt.dk

According to these two articles QEII has opdated the Order of Precedence and that has been distributed among the members of the BRF.

According to this new protocol Kate, because she's a commoner, must curtsey to all royals within the BRF, if she is not in the company of her husband. As examples of people she must curtsey to are mentioned Princesses Anne, Beatrice and Eugenie.
But when William is present, the whole thing is reversed, then the Princesses must curtsey to Kate.

It get even more complicated in regards to Camilla. If Charles is present, but William is not, Kate must do all the curtseying, But if William is present and Charles is not, then the above mentioned Princesses must curtsey to Kate. - And as far as my poor head can fathom, so must Camilla.

QEII changed the Order of Precendense in 2005, so that Princesses are not obliged to curtsey to Camilla.

It is claimend that quite a few among the British nobillity resent Kate as a usurper.

Whatever, I seriously need an aspirin now!

Someone must be seriously bored in order to come up with such a complicated solution to such a fairly simple problem.
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  #649  
Old 06-26-2012, 11:23 AM
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I wonder if the royals have to carry a cheat sheet on them to consult with all these variable scenarios! "Uh, oh, Princess Beatrice is in the room and Hubby's not with me, let me consult the notes!"
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  #650  
Old 06-26-2012, 11:29 AM
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This has all been discussed on other threads but again I think people are confusing precedence with the need to curtsey. Precendence is merely the order of line up for an entrance or a receiving line.
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  #651  
Old 06-26-2012, 12:02 PM
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The only reason the media is making such a big deal is due to their infatuation with Kate. The media wants to toss Order out the window because it is Kate. True Kate may be queen one day, but right now she is just a Duchess.
I think similar noise was made over Diana having to curtsey to Anne, Alexandra etc. Nothing has been made of Camilla having to curtsey if Charles is not with her.
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  #652  
Old 06-26-2012, 12:19 PM
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Good heavens!

Why not keep it simple-stupid? The spouses of those in line of succession automatically assumes the rank of the one they marry and as such bow/curtsy to those with a lower number than themselves?

Or even better: Shake hands or kiss on the cheeks? They are after all relatives and this isn't during the War of the Roses.
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  #653  
Old 06-26-2012, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Baroness of Books View Post
I wonder if the royals have to carry a cheat sheet on them to consult with all these variable scenarios! "Uh, oh, Princess Beatrice is in the room and Hubby's not with me, let me consult the notes!"
poor kate, this is to much for her
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  #654  
Old 06-26-2012, 12:32 PM
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I think the order of precedence generally classifies people in relation to each other in the group, and in that way we can say it stipulates who is more "important" and who's less. But it does not mean that a person B has to curtsy or bow to a person A, who is one step higher in the list. Clearly, all members of the RF should bow or curtsy to the Queen and her consort which they do but among the HRHs, it is quite unusual to bow or curtsy to each other today, well maybe on the most formal occassions! So, what's the big deal here? The order of precedence was always like that a princess by marriage was outranked by a princess by birth. Why? Because the order of precedence among the Royals is based on their relation to the Queen or former Sovereigns. When a princess by marriage is accompanied by her husband, who is a prince by birth, she obviously takes his precedence, which is ranked over all the princesses by birth, because males take precedence before females in general (except for the Sovereign, if female).
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  #655  
Old 06-26-2012, 12:34 PM
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It must be a big story. They just did a segment on CNN news about the Queen's new Order of Precedence. It was mostly centered on Kate and whether or not William was with her. Basically all we've been talking about for a few days here.

Earlier today there was mention about the new name Elizabeth Tower.

Is it just me or has there been a lot more reporting on the BRF on the US side of the pond?
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  #656  
Old 06-26-2012, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Baroness of Books View Post
I wonder if the royals have to carry a cheat sheet on them to consult with all these variable scenarios! "Uh, oh, Princess Beatrice is in the room and Hubby's not with me, let me consult the notes!"
maybe there will be an iPhone app
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  #657  
Old 06-26-2012, 12:46 PM
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Someone should set up a system according to a deck of cards and what beats what. Give them all little pins to wear and if one's pin beats another, the lower person curtseys or bows. Now that is what I would call a real Royal Flush.
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  #658  
Old 06-26-2012, 12:48 PM
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Yeah, but no matter what way they greet, be it in a form of a bow or a kiss, it's still pretty confusing.

Camilla is married to the heir, why not let her have the place in the Order of Precendence similar to the place her husband has?

The same thing in regards to Kate, let her have a place similar to her husbands. Period.

Both these ladies will eventually stand beside a future monarch, so it's only a matter of time before they take precedence before everybody else anyway.

Anyway, it's not so much Kate and Camilla I feel sorry for, it's more those a little further down the line.
Say the man Princess Beatrice marries is a count. The poor guy has to memorize I don't know how many people's rank and position and figure out whether they are in the company of their husbands/wives in order to know whether he should greet them first or the other way around, when they are in the public glare.

It would take a strong man not to feel an urge to curl up in a corner and sob.
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  #659  
Old 06-26-2012, 01:13 PM
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I've been reading through the thread trying to makes heads or tails of the order of precedence and whether it makes sense.

Several things come to mind;

I have an issue with woman who married into a royal family having to curtsy to princesses by birth. I personally don't care on behalf of the women themselves, I won't lose sleep over Kate curtsying to Beatrice or some such nonsense. However, it sends a message to the public that those of "royal blood" are more important than those who just married in, the commoners. That's arcane and out of place with 21st century notions of fairness. Being royal is a privilege (which comes with a fair share of duties). It is NOT a right in the 21st century. I personally think that members of the BRF should curtsy to the Queen and Princess of Wales. If you don't do away with the rest of it, I also think that members of younger generations, Kate, Beatrice, etc, should curtsy to Alexandra and Anne, or even the Duchess of Gloucester - those women who have given a life of service to the BRF. In terms of status, Kate, Beatrice, Eugenie, Zara should all be on equal footing.

Monarchist as I am, some parts of royal existence is just utter nonsense. This is one of them.
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  #660  
Old 06-26-2012, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Camilla is married to the heir, why not let her have the place in the Order of Precendence similar to the place her husband has?

The same thing in regards to Kate, let her have a place similar to her husbands. Period.

Both these ladies will eventually stand beside a future monarch, so it's only a matter of time before they take precedence before everybody else anyway.
Both Camilla and Kate take their husband's precedence when they are with them. It's because their place and rank is derived strictly from their marriage to them and not by anything else. In case of Princess Anne and other royal princesses by birth, their rights, rank and place in the order of precedence come from their birth, just like the husbands' of Camilla and Kate. Theoretically, Princess Eugenie married to her cousin Prince William (well, it would not be unusual in this family would outrank her elder sister because of the rank held by her husband. But, according to the rules of Private Precedence or without her husband in attendance, she should place herself after Beatrice.
Camilla and Kate could be even the Byzantine Empress and the Empress of the Holy Roman Empire in the future but it really does not matter today. Their husbands are who they are now and they are their present wives and have rank and precedence according to that status. Period.
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