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  #621  
Old 06-25-2012, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Molly2101 View Post
I did not think Louise or Zara counted in the precedence for Royal women as they are not HRH...is that true? Though technically Louise is Princess Louise (oh, how I wish we could call her Princess Louise, darn!), she does not use the style therefore she does not "count" per se in the line up. It is odd that Louise would take precedence above her mother, but that is the way it goes.

My question, therefore, is do Peter, Zara, Louise and James rank in the order of precedence?

Louise and James don't because they are minors but Peter and Zara do - as the children of the monarch's daughter. When there is only a listing of names it is hard to see where they fit but when you see a list of people by relationship it is clearer.
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  #622  
Old 06-25-2012, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia
That is interesting, thank you for clarifying that, Iluvbertie.
If say Prince Harry forgot something in QE2's desk and later he runs into retrieve it? He just walks in to her study, thinking it was empty, just as the women gathered and they are mid heavy cursing. There is a man there, do they have to start all over again? Times headline, "Princess All Sent Home With Minor Cursting Pile Up.". Apparently two princess whacked heads as they thought they had to Cursty to the other. Mayhem ensued.
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  #623  
Old 06-25-2012, 06:44 PM
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From Richard Palmer

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In practice, precedence counts for little: a senior royal aide says: "They are all HRHs so they don't bow or curstey to each other."
Richard Palmer @RoyalReporter
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  #624  
Old 06-25-2012, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by padams2359 View Post
If say Prince Harry forgot something in QE2's desk and later he runs into retrieve it? He just walks in to her study, thinking it was empty, just as the women gathered and they are mid heavy cursing. There is a man there, do they have to start all over again? Times headline, "Princess All Sent Home With Minor Cursting Pile Up.". Apparently two princess whacked heads as they thought they had to Cursty to the other. Mayhem ensued.
Love the headline.
For such highly unofficial occasion? No, of course not. I strongly doubt any Princess, or any woman, would curtsey to Prince Harry on an occasion like that. They would most probably say something like "Good Morning" (or, maybe even "Good Morning, Sir") - but that's about it.
And during official events, when curtseying is more or less required (although technically optional), there would simply be no such mix up; timing is perfected to a second.

But, theoretically, assuming your case scenario happened, say, a century ago (when protocol rules were much stricter), and a King or Prince entered the room when ladies were in the process of curtseying to a Queen or Princess, then they wouldn't interrupt the procedure and turn towards the man; instead, they would wait until he leaves the room. Should he pass next to them and/or talk to them, then they would make a small curtsey in acknowledgement - but nothing so dramatic that health and safety would be endangered.

On private occasions, royals don't really bow or curtsey to each other. I mentioned earlier that bowing or curtseying to a Queen is pretty much required from royals; however, I meant official events - not private ones. I would imagine when Prince William meets his grandmother on a private occasion, he merely kisses her on the cheek, or hugs her - but definitely doesn't bow.
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  #625  
Old 06-25-2012, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
The British HRH's do curtsey to each other according to the rules as we saw on the Balcony of BP at Trooping - HRH The Duchess of Cambridge curtseyed to HRH The Duke of Edinburgh.

We have heard that Anne refused to curtsey to Diana implying that Anne was expected to curtsey to her new sister-in-law.
As I said there are persoanl exceptions based on age and respect.

I know you believe the British HRHs go about curtseying to each other but I would love to see some photographic evidence of say HRH The Countess of Wessex or HRH The Duchess of Goucester dropping a curtsey to HRH The Princess Royal or HRH The Prince of Wales or some similar example. There is a clip on YouTube "A Royal Gathering" I think it was called which shows a large number of royals in the Queen Mothers garden at Clarence House. They all can be seen dropping a curtsey or bowing to The Queen but to each other it seems to be very much hugs and kisses all around.
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  #626  
Old 06-25-2012, 06:54 PM
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So in the UK we call the daily mail the daily fail....
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  #627  
Old 06-25-2012, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
As I said there are persoanl exceptions based on age and respect.

I know you believe the British HRHs go about curtseying to each other but I would love to see some photographic evidence of say HRH The Countess of Wessex or HRH The Duchess of Goucester dropping a curtsey to HRH The Princess Royal or HRH The Prince of Wales or some similar example. There is a clip on YouTube "A Royal Gathering" I think it was called which shows a large number of royals in the Queen Mothers garden at Clarence House. They all can be seen dropping a curtsey or bowing to The Queen but to each other it seems to be very much hugs and kisses all around.
Oh, I doubt anyone really things even royals go around bowing or curtseying to each other all the time; that would be pretty ridiculous.

I can totally believe there weren't a lot of bows and curtseys for that event since it was only a semi-official or possibly even private one; for an event like that, the royals would pay respect to the Queen and Prince Philip only (possibly, the Prince of Wales and/or the Duchess of Cornwall too, depending on various circumstances) and greet each other as any family members would.

Precedence and ranking is nowadays only important for really official events, mostly state occasions. For instance, think of the Lunch with Monarchs where everyone curtseyed to those with higher rank (and some, to those of equal or even lower rank); for events like that, rank and precedence is very important, from the order of arrivals, to sitting arrangements.
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  #628  
Old 06-25-2012, 07:17 PM
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I don't think we can look at the Jubilee celebrations as an example of how things are supposed to be. It looked like they had caught some sort of bob and nod fever with many ladies dropping curtseys to people they clearly did not have to. Also I don't think we saw any examples of British HRHs dropping curteys to each other.
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  #629  
Old 06-25-2012, 07:57 PM
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And what about that folks : Anne apparently cutseying to Camilla at Ascot back in 2008 :

Check at 4:11



What about the famous princess royale's reluctance to bow to her sister in law mmmm ?
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  #630  
Old 06-25-2012, 08:19 PM
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Thanks for posting the video, Nico. It looked like Camilla was standing next to a man with an umbrella, so perhaps Princess Anne was curtseying to Charles? Of course, Ascot is a public occasion, so it doesn't mean that Anne would curtsey in private.

I find the custom of bowing and curtseying charming, but I don't think I would like to do it. I think it should be limited to the Queen and Prince Philip within the family. It seems little pretentious for a brother to expect his younger siblings to bow and curtsey. On the other hand, it wouldn't seem strange if that is how you are brought up.
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  #631  
Old 06-25-2012, 08:28 PM
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I see Anne curtseying to some lady but since her back was to the camera I could not tell who it was. I did notice in the video that Beatrice & Eugenie are not shown curtseying to their grandmother which they usually do
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  #632  
Old 06-25-2012, 08:34 PM
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Was Charles there? It didn't look like he was in the carriage procession
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  #633  
Old 06-25-2012, 08:54 PM
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On second viewing, perhaps the man is standing next to Anne (At 4:11, if you look to Camilla's left, there is a man holding an umbrella facing the woman with her back to the camera, but you can't see his head). It doesn't look like Anne was curtseying to the Queen. I'm confused now, would Anne have to curtsey to Camilla if Charles were not there?
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  #634  
Old 06-25-2012, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by US Royal Watcher View Post
On second viewing, perhaps the man is standing next to Anne (At 4:11, if you look to Camilla's left, there is a man holding an umbrella facing the woman with her back to the camera, but you can't see his head). It doesn't look like Anne was curtseying to the Queen. I'm confused now, would Anne have to curtsey to Camilla if Charles were not there?
Depends on whether we take into account official or private precedence.
According to official precedence, Camilla outranks Anne whether Charles is present or not, so yes, Anne could be curtseying to her.
By private precedence, however, Anne outranks Camilla and would not have to curtsey to her. Then again, during private events they rarely curtsey to each other.

Anne was definitely not curtseying to the Queen, and the only other people she could be curtseying to are Camilla and Charles; I have to say though I've never seen Anne curtseying to her brother even during most official events, so she most likely did curtsey to the Duchess of Cornwall.
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  #635  
Old 06-25-2012, 09:15 PM
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This public/private precedence stuff is a bunch of BS in my opinion. Especially since this isn't the 1800s were most of them would live together for the private one to really count.
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  #636  
Old 06-25-2012, 09:18 PM
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This public/private precedence stuff is a bunch of BS in my opinion. Especially since this isn't the 1800s were most of them would live together for the private one to really count.
I have to agree.
Frankly, I never understood why was there a need to issue a Private Precedence list anyway; under normal circumstances, the two precedences would be the same and there wouldn't be the headache (and pages of rather confusing discussion). Maybe Her Majesty could update the lists, bringing them into "sync", so to speak.
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  #637  
Old 06-25-2012, 10:00 PM
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Kate Middleton Demoted? Duchess Ordered To Curtsy To Princesses Eugenie & Beatrice
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  #638  
Old 06-25-2012, 10:04 PM
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If the 2005 Order of Precedence is to be believe, I do hope Charles changed it back to pre-2005. The so call change in 2005 and 2012 sounds like petty family politics to me. Which is a Bunch of BS.
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  #639  
Old 06-25-2012, 10:42 PM
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Up to the Monarch

When it comes to interactions between members of the Royal Family, the order of precedence, has always been at the discretion of the Monarch, as head of the family.

The Order when it comes to titles is more rigid, but things get more difficult when royal children and grandchildren begin to marry. It is mostly about the ranking of the Royal Titleholder... who is the person of royal blood.

For example, Catherine is not Princess Catherine of Wales. Technically, she is Princess William of Wales... but she is Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge. Therefore, her personal ranking is lower, since she is not a royal princess, herself.

There really has not been anything innovative. Statements have been made that HRH Princess Anne, the Princess Royal, refused to curtsy to Diana unless Charles was present. If you look through old photos, you'll find HRH Elizabeth, Duchess of York (the Queen Mum) curtsying to HRH Mary, the Princess Royal... when the Duke was not with her.
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  #640  
Old 06-25-2012, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
I have to agree.
Frankly, I never understood why was there a need to issue a Private Precedence list anyway; under normal circumstances, the two precedences would be the same and there wouldn't be the headache (and pages of rather confusing discussion). Maybe Her Majesty could update the lists, bringing them into "sync", so to speak.
I think Charles may do this upon his accession. If they were synched it would also ensure that the stream-lined royal family unit it is believed we will see under his reign are undoubtedly the most senior.
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