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  #601  
Old 06-24-2012, 06:11 PM
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So, ‘all members of the Royal Family’ are ranked as follows by the Palace: The Queen; Prince Philip; Prince of Wales; Duchess of Cornwall; Prince William; Prince Harry; the Duke of York; the Duchess of Cambridge; the Earl of Wessex; the Countess of Wessex; the Princess Royal; the Duke of Gloucester; the Duchess of Gloucester; the Duke of Kent; the Duchess of Kent; Princess Alexandra.


Read more: Should Kate bend a knee to Beatrice? | Mail Online

I found this interesting - why is Kate slotted in between the Duke of York and the Earl of Wessex?
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  #602  
Old 06-24-2012, 06:12 PM
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Finally somebody told the truth about the whole Order of Precedence thing. thanks Iluvbertie for that. I knew the DM article was crap....
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  #603  
Old 06-24-2012, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by yvr girl View Post
So, ‘all members of the Royal Family’ are ranked as follows by the Palace: The Queen; Prince Philip; Prince of Wales; Duchess of Cornwall; Prince William; Prince Harry; the Duke of York; the Duchess of Cambridge; the Earl of Wessex; the Countess of Wessex; the Princess Royal; the Duke of Gloucester; the Duchess of Gloucester; the Duke of Kent; the Duchess of Kent; Princess Alexandra.
I found this interesting - why is Kate slotted in between the Duke of York and the Earl of Wessex?
That is not their ranking; that is merely in what order they are listed in the official diary. Similarly, Prince William is listed above his uncles.
There are two orders of precedence - an official one and a private one. The Official Precedence (ranking for official events) is determined by law and traditions, whereas the Private Precedence (ranking for private events) is at the will of the Sovereign.


The Official Ranking For Men:
- The Duke of Edinburgh (except, where provided by Parliament, he is outranked by The Prince of Wales)
- The Prince of Wales (except, where provided by Parliament, he outranks his father)
- The Duke of York
- The Earl of Wessex
- The Duke of Cambridge
- Prince Harry
- James, Viscount Severn
- Peter Phillips
- Viscount Linley
- Duke of Gloucester
- Duke of Kent
- Prince Michael of Kent

The Official Ranking For Women:
- The Queen (the Sovereign)
- The Duchess of Cornwall (wife of the Heir Apparent)
- The Countess of Wessex (wife of the Sovereign's younger son)
- The Princess Royal (the Sovereign's daughter)
- The Duchess of Cambridge (the wife of the Sovereign's grandson)
- Autumn Phillips (the wife of the Sovereign's grandson)
- Princess Beatrice (the Sovereign's granddaughter)
- Princess Eugenie (the Sovereign's granddaughter)
- Lady Louise (the Sovereign's granddaughter)
- Zara Phillips (the Sovereign's granddaughter)
- Viscountess Linley (the wife of the Sovereign's nephew)
- Lady Sarah Chatto (the Sovereign's niece)
- The Duchess of Gloucester (the wife of the Sovereign's cousin)
- The Duchess of Kent (the wife of the Sovereign's cousin)
- Princess Michael of Kent (the wife of the Sovereign's cousin)
- Patricia, Countess of Harewood (the wife of the Sovereign's cousin)
- Princess Alexandra (the Sovereign's cousin)


The Private Ranking For Men 1: *
- The Duke of Edinburgh (except, where provided by Parliament, he is outranked by The Prince of Wales)
- The Prince of Wales (except, where provided by Parliament, he outranks his father)
- The Duke of York
- The Earl of Wessex
- The Duke of Cambridge
- Prince Harry

The Private Ranking For Men 2: *
- The Duke of Edinburgh (except, where provided by Parliament, he is outranked by The Prince of Wales)
- The Prince of Wales (except, where provided by Parliament, he outranks his father)
- The Duke of Cambridge
- The Duke of York
- The Earl of Wessex
- Prince Harry

The Private Ranking For Women 1: **
- The Queen
- The Princess Royal
- Princess Beatrice
- Princess Eugenie
- Lady Louise (assuming she is counted as a Royal Princess, which she legally is)
- Princess Alexandra
- The Duchess of Cornwall
- The Duchess of Cambridge
- The Countess of Wessex

The Private Ranking For Women 2: **
- The Queen
- The Duchess of Cornwall
- The Duchess of Cambridge
- The Countess of Wessex
- The Princess Royal
- The Duchess of Gloucester
- The Duchess of Kent
- Princess Alexandra


* The official website lists the Duke of Cambridge above his uncles, which suggests he has precedence over them. However, unlike the private precedence for women, no announcement or edict of any kind has ever been issued, so it might well be a mistake, or just listing for convenience.
** The official website is a bit confusing in that respect; although in the private precedence Princesses by birth (Anne, Beatrice, Eugenie, Alexandra and possibly, Lady Louise) should be ahead of everyone else, the Duchess of Cornwall is still listed immediately after the Queen, followed not by the Countess of Wessex - the wife of the Sovereign's younger son - but the Duchess of Cambridge.

In short, I doubt even the Court knows who is after whom.
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  #604  
Old 06-24-2012, 06:44 PM
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I did not think Louise or Zara counted in the precedence for Royal women as they are not HRH...is that true? Though technically Louise is Princess Louise (oh, how I wish we could call her Princess Louise, darn!), she does not use the style therefore she does not "count" per se in the line up. It is odd that Louise would take precedence above her mother, but that is the way it goes.

My question, therefore, is do Peter, Zara, Louise and James rank in the order of precedence?
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  #605  
Old 06-24-2012, 06:56 PM
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That's an interesting question.

The Order of Precedence puts Sovereign's granddaughters immediately after the wives of Sovereign's grandsons; there is no mention that they should be Royal Highnesses or have titles of any sorts. Zara and Louise are the Queen's granddaughters - ergo, they should be included.

When Queen Victoria's daughter married a non-royal (a pretty daring move in those times) - the Duke of Argyll - that didn't mean her children were crossed out from the Order of Precedence. I would assume the same applies to the Queen's non-titled grandchildren. For the same reason, I have included Autumn Phillips (wife of the Sovereign's grandson), Viscountess Linley (the wife of the Sovereign's nephew), and others.
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  #606  
Old 06-24-2012, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
Prince Philip was indeed Prince in his own right - a Prince of Greece and Denmark...
Thank you, Artemisia, for the explanation!
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  #607  
Old 06-24-2012, 11:48 PM
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Why are there two separate orders of precedence for men and women? It's not as if there are still male-only enclaves of the Royal Court, unless I've missed something.
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  #608  
Old 06-25-2012, 12:11 AM
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There are occasions when only the men, or only the women are present hence the different lists.
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  #609  
Old 06-25-2012, 11:30 AM
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Why are people confusing precedence with the need to curtsey to a person? Precedence only means the line up of people as they enter or leave an event or the receiving line at an event. As a general rule British HRHs do not curtsey to each other regardless of their placing in the order of precedence, although personal exceptions may occassionally be made due to a persons age and the respect one wants to give that individual.
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  #610  
Old 06-25-2012, 12:01 PM
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Victoria Arbiter said that the precedence articles were nonsense and those very same articles where writing when Diana marry Charles
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  #611  
Old 06-25-2012, 01:17 PM
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Posts discussing correct titles and protocol relating to Belgian, Danish, Dutch, Norwegian and Spanish Princesses and Crown Princesses have been moved to the Questions About Styles and Titles thread in the General Royal Discussion subforum.
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  #612  
Old 06-25-2012, 01:22 PM
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I am not sure about the story posted in The Telegraph, and The Mail-- who is the source? Did this person really read this? I have serious doubts about the story. I think that both Charles and William would have something to say about the issue of precedence and that the Queen would listen! Camilla and Catherine are future Queens Consort. Seniority has something to do with precedence as well. Philip and Anne are senior royals who have spent lifetimes serving the crown and are due some respect.
Then, there is the issue of Beatrice and Eugenie's not being official members of the working royals.. There just are so many problems with the story.

Will there be a Letters Patent posted about Precedence if the story is true?
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  #613  
Old 06-25-2012, 03:20 PM
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So in the UK we call the daily mail the daily fail....
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  #614  
Old 06-25-2012, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tudur rose View Post
So in the UK we call the daily mail the daily fail....
It reports the news it hears, isn't that what news outlets do?
One article has got the TRF talking about order of precedence for 2 or even 3 pages. There accuracy isn't great but I can't find a better paper that provides information on the royals, certainly not for pictures. When royals, particularly Catherine are doing engagements nowadays the DailyMail always has the info and the pictures up within 15 minutes or half an hour of the event kicking off. You can belittle them all you like, but they are our only source of information on the royals.
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  #615  
Old 06-25-2012, 03:50 PM
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They may well be the only source for royal news (accurate or inaccurate )You can look at hello magazine or ok too for royal pics .
Or the Torygraph. Oops sorry telegraph silly me .
Is there anywhere else. Websites etc. maybe the royal websites etc which may be more accurate for info . Lots of the media just write speculative stuff. The DM does edit to their own agenda tho , no real journos will work for them .tells you a lot really .
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  #616  
Old 06-25-2012, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tudur rose View Post
They may well be the only source for royal news (accurate or inaccurate )You can look at hello magazine or ok too for royal pics .
Or the Torygraph. Oops sorry telegraph silly me .
Is there anywhere else. Websites etc. maybe the royal websites etc which may be more accurate for info . Lots of the media just write speculative stuff. The DM does edit to their own agenda tho , no real journos will work for them .tells you a lot really .
Hello! and Ok! are released on a weekly basis, their websites update information hours after an event has occurred. Pictures uploaded almost instantly can be found on twitter, but the DailyMail has good pictures within minutes, then follows Getty and Zimbio.

The only really reliable source of information for what royals say and do are the royals themselves, even the royal websites get protocol wrong. I believe when it comes down to precedence, curtseying or bowing it's all down to "what happens on the night". Every media outlet can write nothing but speculation about the royals until they themselves confirm or deny it. For instance, we didn't officially know William and Catherine were in a relationship until they got engaged. The press wrote speculatively that they were together or they weren't, same goes for Harry currently. It's not just the Daily Mail who writes to its own agenda, every does. Even normal people.

Nothing is ever certain in royalty, look at the order of precedence I think Artemisia listed 5 or even 6 possible scenarios in which we might see different royal entrances.
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  #617  
Old 06-25-2012, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
Not when they meet the Queen, it's not optional. And pretty much everyone else on official events. For example, during the aforementioned Lunch with Monarchs, royal ladies curtseyed so much, they might have as well walked with permanently bent knees.
Artimesia, I'm not sure whether you meant when members of the Royal Family meet the Queen curtsying isn't optional. I appreciate that is correct.

For members of the public it is. From the British Monarchy website:

"There are no obligatory codes of behaviour when meeting The Queen or a member of the Royal Family, but many people wish to observe the traditional forms.

For men this is a neck bow (from the head only) whilst women do a small curtsy. Other people prefer simply to shake hands in the usual way."
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  #618  
Old 06-25-2012, 05:23 PM
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Artimesia, I'm not sure whether you meant when members of the Royal Family meet the Queen curtsying isn't optional. I appreciate that is correct.
For members of the public it is. From the British Monarchy website: "There are no obligatory codes of behaviour when meeting The Queen or a member of the Royal Family, but many people wish to observe the traditional forms. For men this is a neck bow (from the head only) whilst women do a small curtsy. Other people prefer simply to shake hands in the usual way."
I meant Royals don't really have the option to bow or curtsey; it's pretty much obligatory and goes with the title and style.

The Court has always made it clear that for members of public, bowing or curtseying when meeting the Queen is optional.
However, royals - all royals, not just British - are traditionalists, so for members of the Royal Family bowing and curtseying to the Queen is obligatory.
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  #619  
Old 06-25-2012, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by miche View Post
Victoria Arbiter said that the precedence articles were nonsense and those very same articles where writing when Diana marry Charles
The problem with that is that at the time of the marriage between Charles and Diana it was made clear that Diana was the third lady in the land - behind HM and HMTQM - but these articles are pushing Camilla and Kate, when without their husbands away from that position.
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  #620  
Old 06-25-2012, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Why are people confusing precedence with the need to curtsey to a person? Precedence only means the line up of people as they enter or leave an event or the receiving line at an event. As a general rule British HRHs do not curtsey to each other regardless of their placing in the order of precedence, although personal exceptions may occassionally be made due to a persons age and the respect one wants to give that individual.

The British HRH's do curtsey to each other according to the rules as we saw on the Balcony of BP at Trooping - HRH The Duchess of Cambridge curtseyed to HRH The Duke of Edinburgh.

We have heard that Anne refused to curtsey to Diana implying that Anne was expected to curtsey to her new sister-in-law.
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