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  #441  
Old 11-26-2010, 05:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
If Harry were to marry a princess from another royal house, would that woman then rank ahead of mere princesses by marriage in the Order of Precedence?

Also, would that woman be able to keep her name and then be HRH Princess ______ of Wales since she's a princess in her own right or would she be HRH Princess Henry of Wales?
And no, her position in the order of precedence would not be different.

A wife takes the precedence of her husband, and that would not be changed just because she was born of a royal house.. unless, of course, she was granted special informal precedence by the Sovereign.

I don't believe changes are made for the formal order of precedence.
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  #442  
Old 11-26-2010, 11:00 AM
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So...I don't know if this has been answered anywhere but I've been wondering:

In the case of an event like a state visit (i.e. from Norway) involving the heir to a visiting sovereign, how do they fit into this? After Princes of the Realm or after The Prince of Wales?
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  #443  
Old 11-26-2010, 02:22 PM
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Visiting sovereigns, members of foreign royal families, and other dignitaries on official visits are not included in the order of precedence. They are not members of her majesty's court, nor are they her subjects.
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  #444  
Old 11-26-2010, 07:01 PM
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But the Order of Precedence determines seating arrangements and entrances, right?
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  #445  
Old 11-26-2010, 09:10 PM
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Just chiming in to say this is an informative topic. I had no idea there was so much not just to OoP but also how titles and styles are given or not.
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  #446  
Old 11-27-2010, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishthanhy View Post
But the Order of Precedence determines seating arrangements and entrances, right?
Yes it does.. for members of the royal family and for the court. Visiting dignitaries usually walk beside the Queen and usually enter with the Queen on state visits.

Likewise, when the Queen visits other countries, she walks with the leading dignitary - be it a king, prince, sultan, president or prime minister.

The order of precedence does not regulate the position of visitors, since those visitors are usually there to officially meet with the Queen.

However, if for example, the Prime Minister of Canada visits, he may be subject to the order of precedence because Her Majesty is also the Queen of Canada.. same with the Prime Minister of Australia and the 16 other countries to which the Queen reigns as sovereign.

That being said, the order of precedence is observed by the royal family wherever they travel.. most recently when the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh visited Abu Dhabi. If you look at the pictures, you will notice that the Duke of Edinburgh walks behind the Queen, observing his position in precedence.
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Ś i vethed...nā i onnad. Minlū pedich nin i aur hen telitha. - Arwen & Aragorn, The Lord of the Rings
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  #447  
Old 11-27-2010, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HM Queen Catherine View Post
...Sorry if it all got a bit muddled..
Precedence can be a complex issue. To minimise confusion it would be beneficial if members could state whether they are referring to the Official Order of Precedence (aka Precedence in England, Precedence in Scotland) or to the Queen's order of precedence within the Royal Family.

thanks,
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  #448  
Old 11-27-2010, 11:57 PM
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Thumbs up

Sorry if I muddled things, but I did mean the Official Order of Precedence. HM Queen Catherine, thank you. I believe your info was what I was looking for in an answer.
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  #449  
Old 11-28-2010, 06:36 AM
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I have a question about the current situation, if Kate (or Cathereine, whichever is appropriate now) were to attend an official function in her capacity of the soveregn's son's future daughter-in-law, what will her precedence be?
I'm asking becouse for example Letizia Ortiz were seated next to her fiancé in the mass after terrorist attacks in Madrid and Charlene Wittstock was just behind the Princesses Stephanie and Caroline...
Just curious.. :)
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  #450  
Old 11-28-2010, 09:25 AM
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Her official precedence would be after Camilla, Sophie and Anne, but before everyone else.
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  #451  
Old 11-28-2010, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Charlotte_Aster View Post
I have a question about the current situation, if Kate (or Cathereine, whichever is appropriate now) were to attend an official function in her capacity of the soveregn's son's future daughter-in-law, what will her precedence be?
I'm asking becouse for example Letizia Ortiz were seated next to her fiancé in the mass after terrorist attacks in Madrid and Charlene Wittstock was just behind the Princesses Stephanie and Caroline...
Just curious.. :)
If Catherine should attend an official function before she becomes William's wife, I would think she enters with him as the female counterpart to his position in precedence. This position, of course, would be given out of courtesy to both her and William.

In the medieval past, a couple were considered "married" when they were formally betrothed or married by proxy, which was a ceremony performed before the actual wedding. But from the point of betrothal, the lady could officially take her future husband's rank and title.

For example, when Catherine of Aragon was betrothed to Arthur, Prince of Wales, in 1499 she was known as the Princess of Wales in Spain before she ever set foot on English soil.. and before she even met Arthur.

Catherine Middleton's family is not titled nor are they a knightly family, and as her father is not an MBE, OBE or a member of some other order (that I'm aware of), she has no current place at all in the order of precedence.

From the examples you've given, I would say that some of the royal houses still observe and acknowledge the position and place for a lady officially engaged to marry into it. In the case of Monaco, it is appropriate that Charlene Wittstock enter behind Princess Caroline, because Caroline is the current heir presumptive.. she would not enter with Prince Albert because he is the ruling Prince.. but I am not familiar with their rules of precedence.
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  #452  
Old 11-30-2010, 05:08 AM
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Kate Middleton: Will Camilla have to curtsey to wife of future king? | Mail Online

Now the dust has settled on the royal engagement, the thoughts of several courtiers are turning to quite how Kate Middleton will fit into the life of the nation’s first family.

Though she is a commoner, as wife of the future king she will find herself elevated to a senior position among the Princesses and Duchesses in the Queen’s extended family.

While that may mean little to the rest of us, in practical terms it will make for a fascinating battle of wills, and force courtiers to address a tantalising question: will Camilla (not to mention the steely Princess Anne), have to curtsey to Kate?
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  #453  
Old 11-30-2010, 05:11 AM
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That depends if they have to curtsy to William. Do they?
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  #454  
Old 11-30-2010, 08:33 AM
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What utter rubbish the article is? How could Camilla possibly be expected to curtesy to Kate? It is obvious who the more senior royal is.
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  #455  
Old 11-30-2010, 12:01 PM
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So, is it true that HRH's don't have to curtesy to each other only The Queen? If that is true then Camilla won't curtesy to Catherine...regardless if The Princess Royal refused to curtesy to Diana then curtesing can't be that big a deal....

Also for the DM article I am not getting why Kate would be above Camilla if their husbands were in the room-
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  #456  
Old 11-30-2010, 12:59 PM
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DM has based its whole story on the specific situation where William was with Catherine, but Charles was not present. I just don't believe that you would have a situation where Camilla would in any way be lower in the order of precedence than Catherine, other than if Catherine were Queen, and Camilla a widow.

As regards Anne, she curtesied to Camilla at Ascot a few years ago. The video of this was on Youtube, and was widely commented on on TRF.
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  #457  
Old 11-30-2010, 07:45 PM
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It certainly doesn't make any sense that Camilla would ever curtsy to Catherine, unless she survives Charles and Catherine is Queen -- does the Dowager Queen (if that's the right title) curtsy to the current Queen? Does it matter if the Queen is Queen Consort or the reigning monarch?

It's all very complex, but fascinating!
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  #458  
Old 11-30-2010, 07:47 PM
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Did Queen Mary curtsey to Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother after George VI became King?
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  #459  
Old 11-30-2010, 09:54 PM
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I heard a story during Charles and Diana's wedding that when Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother became Queen Consort, her mother-in-law Queen Mary kissed her. When her daughter Elizabeth II became Queen Regnant, Queen Mary curtsied to her because Elizabeth II was now her Sovereign.

Then she scolded her because her skirts "were too short for mourning."
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  #460  
Old 11-30-2010, 09:57 PM
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The assumption that the DM is making is that without Charles then Camilla's precedence is the same all the time. I feel sure that if one husband is present then the precedence of the women would mean that they all take their husband's precedence to avoid that very situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnEliza View Post
...does the Dowager Queen (if that's the right title) curtsy to the current Queen? Does it matter if the Queen is Queen Consort or the reigning monarch?
Everyone curtsies to the present monarch so a Dowager Queen would curtsy to a regnant Queen and even to a Queen Consort.
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