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  #421  
Old 11-22-2010, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by texankitcat View Post
Thank you for posting that! Rather surprising that Beatrice and Eugenie are placed before Camilla.

If you look at the list carefully those born royal or members of the royal family are all placed ahead of those who married into the family.

First is the Queen's own daughter, then her granddaughters starting with the daugters of her second son, then the daughter of her third son and then the daughter of her own daughter (so succession order here). Next comes her female royal cousin - the granddaughter of George V who was born a princess. Only after the females that were born members of the royal family comes the wives of her sons and then the wives of her HRH cousins.

It is interesting that her sister's daughter, granddaughters and daughter-in-law aren't in the list at all.

Kate should be placed after Sophie on that list and before the Duchess of Gloucester or after Camilla. So after the wives of her sons or after the wife of William's father and nowhere else.

Of course when their husbands are present the situation changes as they take their precedence from their male partner.
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  #422  
Old 11-22-2010, 09:08 PM
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Yes, I noticed that and figured that is why. I just didn't expect it. It does makes sense now that when their husbands are present their status is that of their husband's. I just expected since they take their husband's title, they also take the order of precedence within the Royal Family as well. Fascinating how this all works.
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  #423  
Old 11-22-2010, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
Born princesses outrank princesses by marriage, including the wife of the heir to the throne. If Camilla was a princess by birth, that would be a different story.

Incidentally, say Camilla was a princess by birth, where would she rank in the precedence of ladies? I know she isn't, but it's a what if in the instance that she was.
Good question! But since she wouldn't be a Princess by birth within that particular house, I wonder if it would make any difference.
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  #424  
Old 11-22-2010, 09:24 PM
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Again, court precedence is entirely within the will of The Sovereign and it is not always the case that a princess by marriage ranks after a princess by birth.

For example, when Diana was married to Prince Charles, her court precedence was directly after The Queen, The Queen Mother and Princess Margaret, but ahead of The Princess Royal. This was due to her position as the mother of a future king, which made her more important in her own right than The Sovereign's daughter.
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  #425  
Old 11-23-2010, 12:48 AM
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I'm not sure that Beatrice and Eugenie are ahead of Camilia. Lady Louise certainly isn't. It depends if Beatrice and Eugenie have been added to the list or not. Children aren't usually counted.

If they are going by Princesses of the Blood they would be higher on the list. I'm not sure if the Queen would put such young people ahead of Alexandra etc.
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  #426  
Old 11-23-2010, 01:09 AM
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The list was updated this year to include Beatrice and Eugenie who are now both adults. Louise wouldn't be on the Queen's list yet but we know where she will go in the present reign due to where she fits.

The Queen would put her granddaughters ahead of her cousin particularly as two of her granddaughters are princesses for the same reason that Alexandra is - they are all male line grandchildren of a monarch.
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  #427  
Old 11-23-2010, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by HM Queen Catherine View Post
The Order of Precedence for Ladies

The Queen
HRH The Princess Royal
HRH Princess Beatrice of York
HRH Princess Eugenie of York
The Lady Louise Windsor (legally HRH Princess Louise of Wessex)
Miss Zara Phillips
HRH Princess Alexandra, The Honourable Lady Ogilvy
HRH The Duchess of Cornwall
HRH The Countess of Wessex
HRH The Duchess of Gloucester
HRH The Duchess of Kent
HRH Princess Michael of Kent

Where is Lady Sarah Chatto in ladies of the land? Or is she out because she has no title, even though she is Princess Margeret's daughter?
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  #428  
Old 11-23-2010, 12:08 PM
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Lady Sarah is after Zara Phillips.
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  #429  
Old 11-23-2010, 02:26 PM
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No, she isn't- at least according to above- Princess Alexandra is the Queen's cousin, I believe-

The only thing I could think of is is that Lady Sarah is not an actual Princess of the blood and carried no title through her father (? is this right) so thus can't be in the line of precedence-

Another question, in Britain can I female carry the title- i.e. after Prince Andrew dies could the Queen (or King) make Bea Duchess of York?
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  #430  
Old 11-23-2010, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by MRSJ View Post
Where is Lady Sarah Chatto in ladies of the land? Or is she out because she has no title, even though she is Princess Margeret's daughter?
The Lady Sarah Chatto falls far lower on the order of precedence, but she is still there. Even though her mother was The Princess Margaret, her position in precedence is that of an Earl's daughter not married to a peer.

Her brother, Viscount Linley, is much higher in the male order of precedence as the nephew of the monarch. The female order does not include a special place for nieces.

Daughters take their precedence from their fathers, not their mothers.

Since Mark Phillips declined a title when he married Princess Anne, their children are plain Mr. and Miss Phillips.. the difference is, they have special place in precedence as the grandchildren of the Queen. And The Lady Sarah does not, nor has she ever, fallen behind Zara Phillips in precedence, unless she had a special place when her mother was alive.

Her place in precedence follows: Prime Ministers of the Commonwealth, The Lord Speaker of the House of Lords, Ambassadors and High Commissioners..
all of the non-royal Duchesses, The Countess of Ulster, The Countess of St. Andrews, The Lady Davina Lewis, The Lady Rose Gilman, The Lady Helen Taylor..
all of the Marchionesses, all the wives of the eldest sons of non-royal dukes, all the daughters of dukes not married to peers, all of the Countesses, all of the wives of younger sons of dukes of the Blood Royal, all of the wives of the eldest sons of Marquesses, The Lady Gabriella Windsor, all of the Marquesses daughters not married to peers, all of the wives of dukes younger sons, all of the Viscountesses, all of the wives of eldest sons of Earls..

and finally, The Lady Sarah falls within the ranks of Earls daughters not married to peers.
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  #431  
Old 11-23-2010, 03:02 PM
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Thank you very much!

So, the Princess Royal's precedence is because she is the daughter of the monoarch and Princess Royal, not because she is the daughter of the Duke of Edinburgh - or yes? Or it doesn't matter because by either standard she is ahead?
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  #432  
Old 11-23-2010, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by MRSJ View Post
Thank you very much!

So, the Princess Royal's precedence is because she is the daughter of the monoarch and Princess Royal, not because she is the daughter of the Duke of Edinburgh - or yes? Or it doesn't matter because by either standard she is ahead?
As the daughter of the Sovereign, The Princess Royal falls directly behind her mother in the female order of precedence.

This has not always been the case, however. The Queen can set the order of precedence for the royal family, and in fact, last changed it in 2004-2005.

This is the current order.

When Catherine Middleton marries Prince William on 29 April 2011, she will also take her place in the precedence of the royal family.
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  #433  
Old 11-23-2010, 03:39 PM
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Thank you very much! I am new to this
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  #434  
Old 11-23-2010, 03:40 PM
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When Catherine Middleton marries Prince William on 29 April 2011, she will also take her place in the precedence of the royal family.
.
And what will her place be?
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  #435  
Old 11-23-2010, 03:52 PM
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  1. The Queen (regnant or consort)
  2. Dowager queens (most recent first)
  3. The sovereign's daughters-in-law
  4. The sovereign's daughters
  5. The sovereign's sons' daughters-in-law
  6. The sovereign's sons' daughters
  7. The sovereign's sisters-in-law*
  8. The sovereign's sisters
  9. The sovereign's father's sisters-in-law*
  10. The sovereign's father's sisters
  11. The sovereign's brothers' daughters-in-law
  12. The sovereign's brothers' daughters
  13. The sovereign's father's brothers' daughters-in-law
  14. The sovereign's father's brothers' daughters
This is what Wikki has- but this is only if the male's are at the event yes? Because they have Lady Chatto right after Serena who is immeditaly following Zara Phillips-
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  #436  
Old 11-23-2010, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Ann View Post
.
And what will her place be?
The Queen
HRH The Princess Royal
HRH Princess Beatrice of York
HRH Princess Eugenie of York
The Lady Louise Windsor (legally HRH Princess Louise of Wessex)
Miss Zara Phillips
HRH Princess Alexandra, The Honourable Lady Ogilvy
HRH The Duchess of Cornwall
HRH The Countess of Wessex
HRH Princess William of Wales
HRH The Duchess of Gloucester
HRH The Duchess of Kent
HRH Princess Michael of Kent

Prince William holds the same position in order of precedence for the royal men.. just after HRH The Earl of Wessex.

As the wife of the Sovereign's grandson, she will come after the wives of the Sovereign's sons.
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  #437  
Old 11-23-2010, 04:33 PM
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That's interesting. Could you let me have the reference, please? it seems closer to the Queen's private order of preference to me, though, of course, I could be wrong.
It's my understanding that formal female precedence, according to the Court and Act of Parliament and established practice, is:
  1. The Queen (regnant or consort)
  2. Dowager queens (most recent first)
  3. The sovereign's daughters-in-law
  4. The sovereign's daughters
  5. The sovereign's sons' daughters-in-law
  6. The sovereign's sons' daughters
  7. The sovereign's sisters-in-law*
  8. The sovereign's sisters
  9. The sovereign's father's sisters-in-law*
  10. The sovereign's father's sisters
  11. The sovereign's brothers' daughters-in-law
  12. The sovereign's brothers' daughters
  13. The sovereign's father's brothers' daughters-in-law
  14. The sovereign's father's brothers' daughters
This is in agreement with the formal Order of Preference as delineated in Burke's Peerage,106th edition, 1999
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  #438  
Old 11-23-2010, 05:20 PM
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It is the informal order of precedence, which I thought was covered earlier in this thread.. meaning that that is what was being discussed. Sorry if it all got a bit muddled..
Of course, during formal and state occasions, the daughters-in-law of the Queen take their husband's precedence.

There are no living dowagers, so HRH The Duchess of Cornwall would come first behind the Queen, along with The Prince of Wales.. it follows as:

The Queen
HRH The Duke of Edinburgh
HRH The Prince of Wales, HRH The Duchess of Cornwall
HRH The Duke of York
HRH The Earl of Wessex, HRH The Countess of Wessex
HRH The Princess Royal
HRH Prince William of Wales, HRH Princess William of Wales (coming soon!)
HRH Prince Henry of Wales
Viscount Severn
HRH Princess Beatrice of York
HRH Princess Eugenie of York
The Lady Louise Windsor

etc. etc.
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  #439  
Old 11-24-2010, 08:23 PM
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If Harry were to marry a princess from another royal house, would that woman then rank ahead of mere princesses by marriage in the Order of Precedence?

Also, would that woman be able to keep her name and then be HRH Princess ______ of Wales since she's a princess in her own right or would she be HRH Princess Henry of Wales?
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  #440  
Old 11-24-2010, 10:30 PM
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In the past, when princes of the blood married foreign princesses, this was often a matter of negotiation between Sovereigns. But in general, a foreign princess marrying Harry would still be "HRH Princess Henry of Wales", along with her style after a peerage if any is granted.

For example, when Prince Alfred, Duke of Edinburgh became engaged to Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna of Russia, her father, Alexander II, insisted she be given higher precedence at court than Princess Alexandra, Princess of Wales, as an Imperial Highness and daughter of an Emperor.

Queen Victoria refused and gave Marie precedence immediately after Alexandra, but before her daughters and granddaughters of the blood. She also declined to allow the style of Imperial Highness after the marriage, insisting she was "HRH The Princess Alfred, Duchess of Edinburgh". As a result, Marie strongly disliked the British Royal Family and refused to allow her daughter, Marie, to marry Prince George of Wales, who was very fond of her.

In more recent times, Princess Marina took her husband's style and title after marriage and was "HRH The Duchess of Kent", but referred to at times as "Princess Marina". When she became a widow, she was allowed the style of "Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent", but so was Alice when her husband, The Duke of Gloucester, died years later.
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