Order of Precedence

[tiaraprin]

I think the laws need to change and allow for a King Consort to a Queen Regnant. There should be equality. A husband should get the title of his wife if she ascends the throne. The days of a man usurping power from a "weak" female are over.

[Idriel]

'Spaciba' Mapple (sorry, no cyrilic alphabet on my computer).

Your post is really informative but could you precise who in this couple had official precedence over the other. I note that the King is named before the Queen. Is that an indication of anything? I read on Wikipedia that English male consorts were never elevated to the dignity of King because a King (male) is hierarchically above a Queen (female).

Tiaraprin, I agree with you! Everybody is much interested in women rights (abrogating the Salic rule, etc.) but everybody forget men's rights (poor creatures) :p .

[Mapple]

Originally Posted by Idriel

'Spaciba' Mapple (sorry, no cyrilic alphabet on my computer).

Your post is really informative but could you precise who in this couple had official precedence over the other. I note that the King is named before the Queen. Is that an indication of anything? I read on Wikipedia that English male consorts were never elevated to the dignity of King because a King (male) is hierarchically above a Queen (female).

Tiaraprin, I agree with you! Everybody is much interested in women rights (abrogating the Salic rule, etc.) but everybody forget men's rights (poor creatures) :p .

Glad to be of use. :)

The King was always mentioned first in the legal instruments of 1554-1558 and Mary I called Philip her 'Lord and Husband' in her will, so, I think, it is safe to infer that Philip preceded the Queen theoretically. However, it was Mary who exercised royal powers.

[Frothy]

Similarly, when married, Sarah was formally "HRH the Princess Andrew, Duchess of York", but styled and addressed correctly as "HRH the Duchess of York".

Andrew is both "HRH the Prince Andrew" and "HRH the Duke of York". His birthright style remains his automatically, but was superseded by his royal dukedom upon marriage. He is correctly styled and addressed as "HRH the Duke of York" as a matter of practice and form.

I just can't agree, Branch q. Sarah was never formally The Princess Andrew, Duchess of York. Precisely because the royal ducal title supercedes the princely one, she was formally HRH The Duchess of York, because her husband was HRH The Duke of York (and not HRH The Prince Andrew, Duke of York) when she married him.

When Andrew was created the Duke of York he ceased to have the title the Prince Andrew. He remained a Prince and his name remained Andrew, but his title changed - not his dignity, his title.

Retaining his birthright princely dignity does not mean the birth title that uses the Christian name was also retained. The princely dignity was used with a new title of a royal dukedom.

Of course, Andrew and Edward are informally known as Prince Andrew and Prince Edward, but those are not true titles.

[Frothy]

The letters patent grant a princely dignity, they do not state that it must include a Christian name. They state either the Christian name or the other title of honour shall be used. It is either/or and not both.

What is retained as granted at birth is the rank of Prince/ss of the UK. Not a particular style using a Christian name.

[Frothy]

Maybe I should write to the Palace and ask. I did email Debrett's, but got no reply. This is just one of those niggling questions that bug a person.

Branch thinks that once Andrew was made DofY, he was "formally" known as HRH The Prince Andrew, Duke of York and I disagree. Perhaps only a letter to the palace can solve this. I could send it on to an admin person if I got a reply.

[ysbel]

Originally Posted by Frothy

The letters patent grant a princely dignity, they do not state that it must include a Christian name. They state either the Christian name or the other title of honour shall be used. It is either/or and not both.

What is retained as granted at birth is the rank of Prince/ss of the UK. Not a particular style using a Christian name.

Hi Frothy,

Maybe we're talking semantics. I distinctly remember reading a primer for Americans on the titles of British nobility and royalty and it mentioned that the style Prince or Princess could only be inherited at birth by the child or grandchild through the male line of the sovereign. In such case they were Prince or Princess FirstName. The presence of a Christian name was definitely spelled out to differentiate it from a title which does not include a Christian name (normally) It is a style or honor inherited at birth and so should not be confused with titles according to this source. Once a prince or princess inherits a title the style Prince (Princess) first name is no longer used. The only exception is Prince and Princess of Wales, which afterall is a title. I normally would discount a third party American reference but this was written by Amy Vanderbilt who advised a lot of prominent Americans how to move in titled British society during the early 50s when this stuff was still really important. She said she had a lot of research to do for this section because it is so complicated.

Perhaps the Queen has changed the rules, she did grant the Dowager Duchess of Gloucester to be called Princess Alice but this is really the exception not the rule.

[Frothy]

Exactly. The title is 'Prince'. The style is The Prince Andrew. The title of a royal Duke is HRH The Duke of X (HRH says 'Prince', of course - all royal dukes are princes). The style is then HRH The Duke of X as well as the title.

The letters patent say that a Prince will be known by his first name OR his other titles of honour. It is not AND but OR - not both. A title of honour supercedes the use of the Christian name. This is certainly confirmed on the BRF website.

However, Branch Q will disagree. I adamantly maintain Sarah was never The Princess Andrew, Duchess of York because I believe there is no such title as The Prince Andrew, Duke of York, except when talking informally. However, as I have said, perhaps the only way to clear this up is to write to HRH's private secretary and ask. If I get a response I promise to publicize it here even if it says I am utterly wrong!

[Elspeth]

Originally Posted by Frothy

Maybe I should write to the Palace and ask. I did email Debrett's, but got no reply. This is just one of those niggling questions that bug a person.

Branch thinks that once Andrew was made DofY, he was "formally" known as HRH The Prince Andrew, Duke of York and I disagree. Perhaps only a letter to the palace can solve this. I could send it on to an admin person if I got a reply.

You could submit it as a question to the Royal Insight Magazine, but I don't know how many of the questions they respond to. I'm pretty sure you'd get an answer of some sort if you wrote to the Palace. You can always tell them you're asking because of some questions that came up on this message board and you'd like to get an authoritative answer that you can post.

[Warren]

Originally Posted by ysbel

... Amy Vanderbilt who advised a lot of prominent Americans how to move in titled British society during the early 50s when this stuff was still really important.

Some of us think it still is!
:) :)

[Von Schlesian]

Originally Posted by Warren

Some of us think it still is!
:) :)

Very true Warren!

[Warren]

Originally Posted by Von Schlesian

Very true Warren!

Yes, good to have this thread not only up and running again, but back on track with the really gritty issues!

:) :)

[Margrethe II]

It was a well known fact that Her Royal Highness the Princess Michael of Kent felt terribly awkward at the thought of Diana, Princess of Wales cutsying to her. Apparently she said to Diana that she would never except a cursty from the future King of Englands mother.

"MII"

[Elspeth]

The members of the royal family (and Diana was still one of them even without the HRH) don't bow and curtsey to the minor royals anyway, so I have no idea why she thought that was going to be an issue.

[Lady Marmalade]

I agree Elspeth. I would not even bow to her.

[Princess BellyFlop]

When Princess Michael said she couldn't receive a bow/curtsey from Diana it was out of RESPECT for her as the mother of the heir to the throne but probably also for the person she was. A commoner being introduced to a royal such as Princess Michael and not bowing would be showing lack of respect and lack of good manners. Bad education also.

I would certainly bow/curtsy to even Mary, not a big thing but a small respectful one. And if you follow me on her thread you should know I'm absolutely not a big fan of her.

[iowabelle]

Despite being a royal addict, I wouldn't curtsey to Princess Michael. And I probably wouldn't curtsey or bob to Her Majesty, either.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Princess BellyFlop

When Princess Michael said she couldn't receive a bow/curtsey from Diana it was out of RESPECT for her as the mother of the heir to the throne but probably also for the person she was.

Princess Michael of Kent was not entitled to receive a curtsey from Diana after the divorce, nor was anyone else in the royal family with the exception of the Queen and the Queen Mother, because Diana retained her precedence regardless of the HRH issue. Since the Queen declared Diana's rank to be the same, it would have been a breach of protocol to expect a curtsey from the Princess.

Diana remained the mother of a future king and received the same protocol and deference she enjoyed while married.

[Lady Marmalade]

Well...actually, since Diana was no longer an HRH, technically speaking, she would probably have to curtsey to Princess Michael. She was the mother of a future king, but she lost all titular dignities and styles upon her divorce...including being curtsied to herself.

[tiaraprin]

Originally Posted by iowabelle

Despite being a royal addict, I wouldn't curtsey to Princess Michael. And I probably wouldn't curtsey or bob to Her Majesty, either.

Although I am an American, there are certain Royals I would curtsey to out of respect and the fact that I think they are good people. I would curtsey to Her Majesty, Prince William, Prince Harry, The Wessexes, The York Girls, The Gloucesters, the Duke and Duchess of Kent, and Princess Alexandra.

I would NEVER curtsey to Charles, Camilla, Prince Philip, Princess Michael, and The Duke of York.