Order of Precedence

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Sean.~

Correct. This was done after WW II in order to limit the size of the Imperial family. At the same time several branches of the family became commoners, as they were stripped of their titles and styles. The only exception is when a princess marries a male member of the Imperial family.

Which, if I'm not mistaken, was the only type of royal marriage ever permitted in the history of the Japanese monarchy. I don't think there has ever been a case of an imperial princess marrying a foreign royal, which would be very difficult to imagine even today.

[Elspeth]

Except in fiction by Sue Townsend, don't forget. In "The Queen and I" she had poor Sayako marry Prince Edward (this book was written in the pre-Sophie days) and become puppet monarchs while the rest of the royal family was banished to a working-class neighbourhood.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...28805?v=glance

[lashinka2002]

I have a question which hopefully has a simple answer....

What was Sarah Ferguson's correct title when she was married to the duke & what was it changed to after they divorced.

Also if the duke were to remarry what would his new wife's title?
Would it take anything away from Sarah's present title?

[Elspeth]

When she was married she was HRH the Duchess of York, which is the title that would apply to Andrew's next wife if he remarries. When the Yorks divorced Sarah lost her HRH and became known as Sarah, Duchess of York. She keeps this title, regardless of Andrew's marital status, until she remarries.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Elspeth

When she was married she was HRH the Duchess of York, which is the title that would apply to Andrew's next wife if he remarries. When the Yorks divorced Sarah lost her HRH and became known as Sarah, Duchess of York. She keeps this title, regardless of Andrew's marital status, until she remarries.

Not quite right. Sarah holds a style which reflects her status as a divorcee of a peer. With divorce, she lost her status as the Duchess of York, which can only be held by the wife of Prince Andrew.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Sean.~

The style of Lord can not be passed down since it is a style and not a title. His (legitimate) children will only be "X Windsor", unless of course he is granted a hereditary title sometime in the future.

It will be interesting to see if the Sovereign grants a peerage since this would be the first time in British history that a royal descendant would carry the family name "Windsor", which really doesn't exist since it was made up, instead of some dignity befitting descendants of the blood royal.

Mountbatten was made up too, so I don't think anyone really knows what the royal family's name is. George V was a Saxe-Coburg through his father, Edward VII, and a Glucksburg through Queen Alexandra. Edward VIII and George VI were essentially Saxe-Coburg and Hanovers. Elizabeth II is really only half-royal since the Queen Mother was a Scottish aristocrat, while Philip is essentially a Glucksburg and Hesse-Darmstadt.

[lashinka2002]

So does this mean she is back to being plain Sarah Ferguson, ex-wife of duke of York?
Why then does everyone refer to her as the duchess of York still?

[Elspeth]

With divorce, she lost her status as the Duchess of York, which can only be held by the wife of Prince Andrew. With divorce, she lost her status as the Duchess of York, which can only be held by the wife of Prince Andrew.

According to royal.gov, her name has been Sarah, Duchess of York, since her divorce. I didn't say that she was "the Duchess of York" after her divorce, I said that after her divorce she's been known as Sarah, Duchess of York.

[Elspeth]

Originally Posted by lashinka2002

So does this mean she is back to being plain Sarah Ferguson, ex-wife of duke of York?
Why then does everyone refer to her as the duchess of York still?

She isn't Sarah Ferguson because that was her maiden name. According to the royal family website, her name was Sarah, Duchess of York, after her divorce.

[lashinka2002]

Thank you for the quick response.
So if Andrew remarried his new wife would be "HRH _____ Duchess of York" whereas
Sarah is and would be Sarah, Duchess of York?
Seems a little odd... Am I understanding this right?

[Sean.~]

Originally Posted by branchg

Which, if I'm not mistaken, was the only type of royal marriage ever permitted in the history of the Japanese monarchy. I don't think there has ever been a case of an imperial princess marrying a foreign royal, which would be very difficult to imagine even today.

They married into the Korean RF.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by lashinka2002

Thank you for the quick response.
So if Andrew remarried his new wife would be "HRH _____ Duchess of York" whereas
Sarah is and would be Sarah, Duchess of York?
Seems a little odd... Am I understanding this right?

Andrew's new wife would actually be "HRH the Princess Andrew, Duchess of York", or "HRH the Duchess of York". And yes, Sarah would still be styled as she is today as the former wife of a peer, unless of course, the Queen granted her a new style prior to the remarriage.

[Elspeth]

Originally Posted by lashinka2002

Thank you for the quick response.
So if Andrew remarried his new wife would be "HRH _____ Duchess of York" whereas
Sarah is and would be Sarah, Duchess of York?
Seems a little odd... Am I understanding this right?

If Andrew remarried, his wife would be HRH the Duchess of York and Sarah would remain Sarah, Duchess of York, until she remarried.

[tiaraprin]

Originally Posted by Warren

OK, we have covered The Duke of York, agree that Camilla has been hard-done-by in regard to Court Precedence, and attempted to explain what little (it seems) we know and understand of what goes on behind the Palace walls. So what's the next topic?

How did those members of the extended Royal Family feel when they were not only rudely stripped of their German Princely titles in 1917, but lost their styles of Serene Highness as well? And to add insult to injury they were demoted in the pecking order to join the ranks of the mere Peerage.

And why the inconsistency of allowing Marie Louise and Helena Victoria of Schleswig-Holstein to remain Princesses, with the style of Highness?
.

I believe George V let them remain Royal Highnesses because they were granddaughters of Queen Victoria.

It is interesting though that he demoted his own wife's family. Perhaps due to the fact that their titles came from morganatic blood he didn't see a problem in "demoting" them because in the eyes of many royals, they were not "royal" to begin with. Queen Alexandra and her daughters always poked fun at Queen Mary by referring to her morganatic blood saying "Poor May with her Wurttenberg hands."

[lashinka2002]

Thank you for your responses.
I would hope the queen would grant Sarah a different title should Andrew remarry, but then why would Sarah want a different title than her children?
It seems a little silly that both women would be known as duchesses of york.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by lashinka2002

Thank you for your responses.
I would hope the queen would grant Sarah a different title should Andrew remarry, but then why would Sarah want a different title than her children?
It seems a little silly that both women would be known as duchesses of york.

Well, I don't think we have to worry too much because it doesn't look like Andrew is interested in remarrying.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by tiaraprin

I believe George V let them remain Royal Highnesses because they were granddaughters of Queen Victoria.

It is interesting though that he demoted his own wife's family. Perhaps due to the fact that their titles came from morganatic blood he didn't see a problem in "demoting" them because in the eyes of many royals, they were not "royal" to begin with. Queen Alexandra and her daughters always poked fun at Queen Mary by referring to her morganatic blood saying "Poor May with her Wurttenberg hands."

George V let his cousins retain the dignity of "Princess", even though they held the title through their father's German style and title, because they were born and raised in England as British subjects.

Also, the King did not "demote" Queen Mary's family, he granted them the style and title of Marquesses in the peerage of the UK, but required they reliniquish using their German styles in the UK. The Tecks were considered to be morganatic in the old hierarchy of German royal protocol with the style of Serene Highness, which Queen Victoria thought was ridiculous since Princess Mary was the grandaughter of George III.

[tiaraprin]

Originally Posted by branchg

George V let his cousins retain the dignity of "Princess", even though they held the title through their father's German style and title, because they were born and raised in England as British subjects.

Also, the King did not "demote" Queen Mary's family, he granted them the style and title of Marquesses in the peerage of the UK, but required they reliniquish using their German styles in the UK. The Tecks were considered to be morganatic in the old hierarchy of German royal protocol with the style of Serene Highness, which Queen Victoria thought was ridiculous since Princess Mary was the grandaughter of George III.

You don't consider going from a Serene Highness to a Marquess a demotion?

[Idriel]

it is unlikely that Harry would marry an Austrian 'archduchess'

Yes, that's not likely. I was not trying to be realistic, I just wanted an answer.

It is unlikely that a Catholic archduchess would change her faith.

But I think it is likely, would Harry or William want to marry a catholic, that the law should be changed by the Queen. What do you think about that?

Originally Posted by Sean.~

Just to clarify, Austria neither has an Emperor or Imperial Highnesses. All titles and styles of nobility are illegal in that country. The Austrian laws are much more stricter on this subject than the German ones. Otto von Hapsburg had to renounce all claims in order to be allowed entry (although his family recognizes this as being out of necessity, and he is still the head of his house). Members of the former ruling house use the Imperial Highness as styles of pretension only.

Does that mean German law recognize styles like HRH. I read somewhere that titles were recognized by German law (that for example Alexandra von Hanover will have Princess von Hanover written on her passport). But I've never read anything about styles. Can you tell me?
Also, about Austria: yes, of course, there's officially no more IH like there's no more RH in Greece, etc. But I really don't think the fact that there no Austrian Emperor anymore will bother The Queen. I believe among royalty, Austrian princes or Archdukes are Imperial Hignesses and are treated as such. I think the same rules don't apply for us commoners and among royalty.
I would really be surprised, considering how the BRF treats the Greek RF, for example, if they did not had the same respect for Austrian Princes.
What are your views on the subject?

[Warren]

Originally Posted by Idriel

But I think it is likely, would Harry or William want to marry a catholic, that the law should be changed by the Queen.

The Queen can't change this law Idriel. The prohibition of Roman Catholics (and those married to Roman Catholics) being in line to the British Crown is laid down by Act of Parliament. Only the Parliament (ie the government of the day) can change the law.

Does that mean German law recognize styles like HRH. I read somewhere that titles were recognized by German law (that for example Alexandra von Hanover will have Princess von Hanover written on her passport).

German law doesn't recognise titles. However people are allowed to make their title part of their surname, hence a passport showing "Alexandra Princessin von Hanover".

But I've never read anything about styles.

Again, German law doesn't recognise styles (eg HRH, HSH etc). However, many people, including members of the government, will still use HRH, HSH etc when addressing a Prince, Duchess, whatever. Good manners, respect for the person or family, old-world charm: all of these I guess. Just as some Greeks would greet former King Constantine as "Your Majesty", and some Serbians would greet Crown Prince Alexander as "Your Royal Highness".

I believe among royalty, Austrian Princes or Archdukes are Imperial Hignesses and are treated as such.

Archdukes and Archduchesses of Austria are styled Imperial and Royal Highness. Among Royalty they certainly would be addressed as such. The Habsurgs are one of the oldest dynasties in Europe. Royalty will always respect Royalty; the fact a family may no longer reign is irrelevant. Royalty is a very exclusive caste; they observe their own traditional social rules amongst themselves.

I would really be surprised, considering how the BRF treats the Greek RF, for example, if they did not had the same respect for Austrian Princes.

The Windsors would treat the Archdukes according to their standing; eg Queen Elizabeth would regard the Archduke Otto as the Head of a Royal [Imperial] House and would accord him the appropriate respect.

Hope this helps Idriel.
.