Members of the Royal Family

[Duc_et_Pair]

Am i right in saying that Diana was still a member of the royal family after her divorce? Even though she was not a HRH you can still be a member of the royal family even if you are not royal?

It wrecks that the British do not make a difference in royal family and Royal House, like Spain or the Netherlands. The Infanta Doña Pilar (aunt of the King) is a member of the Spanish royal family, she is no member of the Casa Real. The Duke of Parma (cousin of the Dutch King) is a member of the Dutch royal family, he is no member of the Koninklijk Huis. Marius Borg, (eldest son of Norway's future Queen) is a member of the Norwegian royal family, not of the Norske Kongehus.

Likewise we could have said: the late Diana was a member of the royal family but not of the Royal Firm (by lack of an official name).

You do not need to be a HRH. Zara Phillips is as much a granddaughter of the Queen as Princess Beatrice.

 

[Curryong]

I think I remember an announcement from BP at the time of the divorce that Diana (even minus her HRH) was regarded still as a member of the BRF. This was probably due to her status as mother to the second in line to the throne.

 

[Denville]

I don't think they regarded her as family, but she was still the mother of the 2 heirs ot the throne...

 

[royal_enthusiast]

Please could someone with knowledge answer my my query which would be greatly appreciated. Also I was not sure which thread was most appropriate for this to be posted in but came to the conclusion that this was the most appropatiate. Apologies if this is posted in the wrong thread and please remove it if it is inappropriate and apologies in advance if my post seems in bad taste. My query is that I was wondering whether Sarah, Duchess of York will be entilled to a royal funeral and a burial at frogmore? The reason why I ask this is I am unsure what status that Sarah has within the royal family. I know she is not the mother of a future monarch but she is the mother of two royal princesses of the blood. Would it be a stretch to say that she may possibly be afforded a funeral service at St George’s Chapel with the presence of some royals and a burial at Frogmore.

 

[Osipi]

I sincerely believe that Sarah, Duchess of York would *not* be afforded a royal funeral as she is no longer royal or a member of the royal family. She is considered to be a private citizen at this time.

However, it may be possible that she would be afforded a place of burial next to Andrew wherever that may be. I don't know the ins and outs of how these things are worked but it seems feasible that they may want to be buried next to each other.

 

[royal_enthusiast]

Would the Duchess of Windsor’s funeral be something similar to what Sarah may have or did Wallis have a royal funeral?

 

[tommy100]

I would assume that Sarah would have a private funeral, that would of course be attended by members of the RF and be organised with some involvement by the Royal Household (unofficially) and no doubt Andrew and Beatrice and Eugenie would be in charge of the arrangements. The Queen may permit it to take place in St George's as a private funeral or, betters till IMO The Royal Chapel of All Saints which is a small church in the grounds of Royal Lodge and more private.

I don't see how there would be any of the ceremonial such as military involvement etc as Sarah is not a member of the Royal Family. I think it would be a private funeral.
The NY Times account of Wallis Simpsons funeral is here
https://www.nytimes.com/1986/04/30/us/burial-next-to-husband-in-windsor-for-duchess.html

Four members of the royal family and seven members of her household staff from Paris, where she died last Thursday at 89, were present for the interment that finally achieved for the former King Edward VIII and the American divorcee he took as his wife their ambition to be together in a Britain that would honor them.

Even then, the honors paid by the reigning House of Windsor to the former Wallis Warfield Simpson were as muted as they could be.

In a dignified 28-minute private service in St. George's Chapel that was attended by 175 people...

 

[Osipi]

The Duchess of Windsor's funeral service was held at St. George's Chapel at Windsor and was a private family service. However, I did find this tidbit and found it interesting.

"The Queen and other members of the royal family are expected to attend. A period of family mourning was announced from noon today until after the funeral on Tuesday, when flags on government buildings will fly at half mast."

and

"All she had been offered was the right to be buried at Frogmore."

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/25/wallis-simpson-duchess-windsor-burial-1986

 

[royal_enthusiast]

The aspect of flags flying at half mast for me sounded like Wallis was not be treated as a private individual but more as a member of the royal family as a private individual’s death would not result in flags flying at half mast.

 

[Biri]

And Captain Mark Philipps will have an entirely private funeral.

 

[Queen Claude]

Many people, after reaching a certain age, make known what kind of funeral they want. If that applies to Sarah, then her funeral will go according to whatever plan Sarah established. If Sarah wanted the funeral service at St. George's, she will not be denied that. If she wants to be buried at Frogmore in the soace designated for the York family, I doubt if she will be denied that either.

 

[tommy100]

Well St George's Chapel is a Royal peculiar under the jurisdiction of the sovereign, given that will probably be Charles at the time, he could well "suggest" something more low key. I'm not saying he will but I don't think you can assume just because Sarah may want to means thats where her funeral will be.

 

[royal_enthusiast]

Sarah may live in to the reign of William as she is 11 years younger than Charles.

 

[Queen Claude]

Well St George's Chapel is a Royal peculiar under the jurisdiction of the sovereign, given that will probably be Charles at the time, he could well "suggest" something more low key. I'm not saying he will but I don't think you can assume just because Sarah may want to means thats where her funeral will be.

You're right but as I implied I am operating under the assumption that Sarah has planned her funeral. If that is the case then I am further assuming that the current monarch would grant her request and that this is not something that a future monarch would reverse.

 

[Madame Verseau]

Since Sarah is not married into the family and does not have HRH is she received at Buckingham Palace during the formal court process?. Does she have to curtsy to the other duchesses by marriage Kate, Meghan and Sophie because they have HRH?

 

[VictoriaB]

Since Sarah is not married into the family and does not have HRH is she received at Buckingham Palace during the formal court process?. Does she have to curtsy to the other duchesses by marriage Kate, Meghan and Sophie because they have HRH?

She doesn't have to curtsy to anyone, it is entirely optional.

But as she is not a Royal Highness and Camilla, Kate, Meghan and Sophie are, in days gone by, yes, it would be expected that Sarah curtsy to them.

 

[Somebody]

It wrecks that the British do not make a difference in royal family and Royal House, like Spain or the Netherlands. The Infanta Doña Pilar (aunt of the King) is a member of the Spanish royal family, she is no member of the Casa Real. The Duke of Parma (cousin of the Dutch King) is a member of the Dutch royal family, he is no member of the Koninklijk Huis. Marius Borg, (eldest son of Norway's future Queen) is a member of the Norwegian royal family, not of the Norske Kongehus.

Likewise we could have said: the late Diana was a member of the royal family but not of the Royal Firm (by lack of an official name).

You do not need to be a HRH. Zara Phillips is as much a granddaughter of the Queen as Princess Beatrice.

I agree that some kind of official distinction would help (you could argue that in the UK all royal highnesses are part of 'the royal house' and all other family members are just that: members of the royal family).

However, imo those who divorce a member of the house/family cease to be members of either category themselves.

 

[Denville]

Many people, after reaching a certain age, make known what kind of funeral they want. If that applies to Sarah, then her funeral will go according to whatever plan Sarah established. If Sarah wanted the funeral service at St. George's, she will not be denied that. If she wants to be buried at Frogmore in the soace designated for the York family, I doubt if she will be denied that either.

Why? Sarah is not favoured by the RF... she's nto a member of the RF, and I can't see why she would be treatd as a member of the RF, just because she "wanted it".

 

[Osipi]

We'll most likely never know what Sarah wants or what Sarah might have planned until the occasion actually arises. For all we know, she could lean towards doing a full body donation to medical science and request no funeral at all.

We just don't know.

 

[royal_enthusiast]

Could Sarah have something like Lord Snowdon when he had a private funeral and then a memorial service attended by all the royals.

 

[Denville]

We'll most likely never know what Sarah wants or what Sarah might have planned until the occasion actually arises. For all we know, she could lean towards doing a full body donation to medical science and request no funeral at all.

We just don't know.

I doubt it. Im sure she'd like to be buried with the RF, but its not going to happen... not under Charles or the queen.

 

[royal_enthusiast]

I know Diana wasn’t buried at frogmore but do you think the Queen would have allowed Diana to be buried at frogmore?

 

[Queen Claude]

Why? Sarah is not favoured by the RF... she's nto a member of the RF, and I can't see why she would be treatd as a member of the RF, just because she "wanted it".

Sarah is favored by the one who counts which is the Queen, and IMO if her funeral and burial arrangements involved St. George's Chapel, the Royal Chapel of All Saints and / or Frogmore, and she discussed her funeral arrangements with the Queen and the Queen approved, I don't see this as something not happening even if the funeral and burial happens when one of QEII's successors is the monarch.

Personally I don't see having the funeral of a non-BRF member at St. George's Chapel (or the Royal Chapel of All Saints) as a big deal, there are precedents for that. Burial at Frogmore would be the request requiring more deliberation and consideration.

Could Sarah have something like Lord Snowdon when he had a private funeral and then a memorial service attended by all the royals.

Of course, if that is her wish and the others are willing to attend.

It seems like you are trying to determine certain people's status or ranking based on the funeral that they had or will have, and since funerals are a very personal thing, there are too many variables to try to determine someone's status based on his / her funeral arrangements.

 

[royal_enthusiast]

Thank you all for your responses, I really appreciate it and you have all been of great help.

It has occurred to me that Diana’s funeral was arranged by the Lord Chamberlain. I hate to be speculative and apologise if I am being but it has occurred to me that if she had lived and remarried would her subsequent wedding be organised by the Lord Chamberlain or would that just apply to her funeral. I know there is no definite known answer and we will never know but I would love to hear what your personal view of this would be.

 

[Biri]

I highly doubt that her eventual remarriage would have been organised by the Lord Chamberlain.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I know Diana wasn’t buried at frogmore but do you think the Queen would have allowed Diana to be buried at frogmore?

I think the Queen would have approved. But the Spencers had the lead and made other arrangements

 

[Denville]

I certainly don't think the queen would have wanted Diana buried anywhere royal.

I highly doubt that her eventual remarriage would have been organised by the Lord Chamberlain.

of course it wouldn't. She was not royal. Because her funeral was a big public event, the Ld Chamberlain organised it because the Spencers would nto have been able to organise such an event. It was based on the plans for the QM's funeral... But if Diana had remarried ti would up to her and her husband to arrange it.. She was not royal any more.....

 

[royal_enthusiast]

I thought she was still regarded as a member of the royal family if I remember correctly?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I certainly don't think the queen would have wanted Diana buried anywhere royal.

The Queen is a Christian and to me seems a flexible and practical lady. Angus Ogilvy, Henry Abel Smith, Dorothy Cambridge née Westenra Hastings, Alexander Ramsay, Wallis Windsor née Warfield, etc are examples of non HRH's and non-royals buried at Frogmore.

But the Spencers had other arrangements, so we will never know.

I thought she was still regarded as a member of the royal family if I remember correctly?

She was the mother of the future King indeed and as such unbreakably linked to the person of the future King.

 

[royal_enthusiast]

So if she was a member of the royal family would her wedding be royal as I thought all members of the royal family have royal weddings regardless of whether it’s public or private, which would be organised by the Lord Chamberlain just as both Prince Harry’s and Princess Eugeine’s wedding were and currently being organised by.