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  #141  
Old 10-27-2007, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
How very sweet. I'm very often taken for a woman but that's the down side to having fabulous cheekbones. However, the question in hand is what is the core of my discontent with the Royal Family? Well, were we looking at a gang of regal upstanding role-models who lived as befitting Royalty, who handled their role with professionalism and the odd camp phrade, I would let my dislike of hereditary priveledge drop and wave a flag at them. The reality is very different. The top four are fine - they can do the job well and they can provide consistency. When they go, we're left with a gaggle of chavs that'd make Phyllis Diller look like Mother Teresa. So that's the first charge, that the future generations aren't fit for purpose. The second is that I dislike the idea of being given the top job on a plate because you're born with it when I and so many others have to scrimp and save in order to get a basic foothold in this mad thing we call life. I dislike the idea of being told "You can be anything you want except..." and a monarchy enforces that. I can be anything I want but Head of State - and I find that not only unfair but a message that they are better than me. And call it diva arrogance but I refuse to believe that the Windsors are better than me. I did but that's until I discovered the wonders of the establishment putting obstacles in my way. I intend to be whatever I want to be - and no sweet old girl in a crown and a pair of "I Love Val Doonican" slippers is gonna tell me different.
I think I get what you are unhappy about now.

Tell me, do you really think that you will ever truly be the equal of people who are wealthy? Do you really think that you have the same shot at becoming wealthy as those who are born into it or who have family connections that will see that they thrive and do well? Do you truly believe that if you just work hard and smart that you can go as far as anyone else?

If you do, LIFE HAS SOME RUDE AWAKENINGS FOR YOU.
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  #142  
Old 10-27-2007, 08:17 PM
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What I want to know is this:

What tangible benefit will the British (or any other) people have by removing the monarchy? Will they be wealthier? Will they be healthier? Will the trains suddenly start running on time? Will the weather suddenly turn to that of the Riviera?
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  #143  
Old 10-27-2007, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
How very sweet. I'm very often taken for a woman but that's the down side to having fabulous cheekbones. However, the question in hand is what is the core of my discontent with the Royal Family? Well, were we looking at a gang of regal upstanding role-models who lived as befitting Royalty, who handled their role with professionalism and the odd camp phrade, I would let my dislike of hereditary priveledge drop and wave a flag at them. The reality is very different. The top four are fine - they can do the job well and they can provide consistency. When they go, we're left with a gaggle of chavs that'd make Phyllis Diller look like Mother Teresa. So that's the first charge, that the future generations aren't fit for purpose. The second is that I dislike the idea of being given the top job on a plate because you're born with it when I and so many others have to scrimp and save in order to get a basic foothold in this mad thing we call life. I dislike the idea of being told "You can be anything you want except..." and a monarchy enforces that. I can be anything I want but Head of State - and I find that not only unfair but a message that they are better than me. And call it diva arrogance but I refuse to believe that the Windsors are better than me. I did but that's until I discovered the wonders of the establishment putting obstacles in my way. I intend to be whatever I want to be - and no sweet old girl in a crown and a pair of "I Love Val Doonican" slippers is gonna tell me different.
A republic will still present the same set of challenges that a monarchy does, the distinction is that the monarchy is more transparent. There are very few cases of the Bill Clintons of the world, and let’s not forget what the right tried to do to him. I will agree with you on principle, even if it’s only an illusion with a very slim chance for the common man. Part of me is idealistic, and the other part has a very cynical view of the world, unfortunately. Your argument is fair enough, but the fact that you (a man) have better looking cheekbones than me (a girl), proves that life is not fair. I had to throw that in lol.
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  #144  
Old 10-27-2007, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by wbenson View Post
What I want to know is this:

What tangible benefit will the British (or any other) people have by removing the monarchy? Will they be wealthier? Will they be healthier? Will the trains suddenly start running on time? Will the weather suddenly turn to that of the Riviera?
British news 'journalism' will improve.
Indeed, that alone might just make Britons turf the monarchy!
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  #145  
Old 10-27-2007, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by diamondBrg View Post
I think I get what you are unhappy about now.

Tell me, do you really think that you will ever truly be the equal of people who are wealthy? Do you really think that you have the same shot at becoming wealthy as those who are born into it or who have family connections that will see that they thrive and do well? Do you truly believe that if you just work hard and smart that you can go as far as anyone else?

If you do, LIFE HAS SOME RUDE AWAKENINGS FOR YOU.
Life's had some pretty rude awakenings so far. I'm not naive, life's a bitch and it's hard and I'll never be Zsa Zsa Gabor - but any limitations on me getting as close to her as is humanly possible are unacceptable.
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  #146  
Old 10-27-2007, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by GovGen View Post
British news 'journalism' will improve.
Indeed, that alone might just make Britons turf the monarchy!
The subject would change, at least.
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  #147  
Old 10-27-2007, 09:56 PM
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A republic will still present the same set of challenges that a monarchy does, the distinction is that the monarchy is more transparent. There are very few cases of the Bill Clintons of the world, and letís not forget what the right tried to do to him. I will agree with you on principle, even if itís only an illusion with a very slim chance for the common man. Part of me is idealistic, and the other part has a very cynical view of the world, unfortunately. Your argument is fair enough, but the fact that you (a man) have better looking cheekbones than me (a girl), proves that life is not fair. I had to throw that in lol.
Sorry, but there a loads of Bill Clintons in this country. Richard Nixon came from a humble family, too. Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Peter Lynch, Jerry Sienfeld, Michael Dell, Steve Jobs, Oprah, Sam Walton, thousands and thousands you never heard of. Rudy Giuliani, Barak Obama, Jesse Jackson. Oh, the list can go on for days. There are approximately 8.3 million, millionaires in the United States, most not from old money. If you have brains and are a go getter, then you will have a great chance of succeeding. And, once you've made it, there are no princes or dukes over you. Money is the regulator of society here. The days of the 400 are gone. Bill Gates gets invited to the same parties as anyone with a title. And, Beatrix Fan, there should be no limits on your getting to be Zsa Zsa, if you want to. Life is not fair, but why skew it with people who have a place at "the table" just by birth order?
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  #148  
Old 10-27-2007, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Sorry, but there a loads of Bill Clintons in this country. Richard Nixon came from a humble family, too. Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Peter Lynch, Jerry Sienfeld, Michael Dell, Steve Jobs, Oprah, Sam Walton, thousands and thousands you never heard of. Rudy Giuliani, Barak Obama, Jesse Jackson. Oh, the list can go on for days. There are approximately 8.3 million, millionaires in the United States, most not from old money. If you have brains and are a go getter, then you will have a great chance of succeeding. And, once you've made it, there are no princes or dukes over you. Money is the regulator of society here. The days of the 400 are gone. Bill Gates gets invited to the same parties as anyone with a title. And, Beatrix Fan, there should be no limits on your getting to be Zsa Zsa, if you want to. Life is not fair, but why skew it with people who have a place at "the table" just by birth order?
Lets see here, taking your figure of 8.3 million MILLIONAIRES out of a population of over 300 MILLION + people, hmmmm, that is about 2.77% of the population, so you would have to be in the top half of the overall top 10% of the total US population to be in that club. Sure doesn't sound very egalitarian and democratic to me.

Put another way, you have a 97.23% chance NOT TO BE IN THAT ELITE GROUP.

So tell me again how if you just work real hard you can make it? Are you saying that 97.23% of the US population are lazy, shiftless bums?
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  #149  
Old 10-27-2007, 10:06 PM
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Okay, I kind of wrote my English research paper on this last year, so feel free to read it if you're bored enough . It deals with why the British should keep their monarchy AND peerage.

PS-I got an A+ on it.
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  #150  
Old 10-27-2007, 10:08 PM
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Thanks Benjamin. I look forward to reading your research paper.
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  #151  
Old 10-27-2007, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Sorry, but there a loads of Bill Clintons in this country. Richard Nixon came from a humble family, too. Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Peter Lynch, Jerry Sienfeld, Michael Dell, Steve Jobs, Oprah, Sam Walton, thousands and thousands you never heard of. Rudy Giuliani, Barak Obama, Jesse Jackson. Oh, the list can go on for days. There are approximately 8.3 million, millionaires in the United States, most not from old money. If you have brains and are a go getter, then you will have a great chance of succeeding. And, once you've made it, there are no princes or dukes over you. Money is the regulator of society here. The days of the 400 are gone. Bill Gates gets invited to the same parties as anyone with a title. And, Beatrix Fan, there should be no limits on your getting to be Zsa Zsa, if you want to. Life is not fair, but why skew it with people who have a place at "the table" just by birth order?
Don't be sorry, I stand corrected. That's 8.3 million out of how many of the population. I will look it up.

Oops, it looks like I don't have to.
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  #152  
Old 10-27-2007, 10:27 PM
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I don't want to inhibit anyone from dreaming and working to achieve their dreams, that is one of the things that makes life very worthwhile.

I know for me, I became a much happier person, I felt more fulfilled, at peace and content when I not only intellectually accepted that life is not fair in most respects but I internalized it as well.

Even if Beatrixfan gets his desire and the Monarchy is abolished, while I do admire the British people and what they have accomplished in their very long history, they do and will continue to have a class system and pecking order like every other society, it is just human nature. Human beings will always as a whole group want to have more money than others, drive nicer cars than others, wear nicer clothes than others, etc, etc. There will always be wealthy people and well connected people who want to remain aloof and "better than" and most often have the cash and political power to do so. That is just life.
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  #153  
Old 10-27-2007, 10:31 PM
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Ok, I don't want to be rich. It'd be nice but I can live without it. However, I find the situation at the moment a little unfair. I had a job, a good job with a good wage. I had an apartment, I could just about afford it and then the rent went up. As did travel costs. Couldn't afford to live alone, had to move outside of London to afford to but then my travel bill went up and in the end I had to resign. Whilst I'm dealing with this, the Queen's worrying about whether she should take 3 furs or 4 to Balmoral. Is that fair when I work much harder than the Queen? Well, no. If you work hard you get money but the Royals don't work for the money they get by which I mean, they get considerably more than some of our elected representatives. An MP gets £80,000 a year - why can't the Royals cope with say £50,000 each? They don't need money yet they keep gettin' it and for what? The world doesn't owe me a living but whilst I'm getting gallstones worrying about how I'm going to afford my weekly order from Tescos, I think I've got a right to be crabby about paying 61p to a family who already have enough money to sustain a small principality.

Benjamin, loved the paper but keeping the peerage? Even if I could get over my anti-monarchy sentiment, I'll never be happy with the idea of a bunch of con artists who have bought their arse's onto the red benches, having the ability to stop legislation that I really need. And they've done it recently.
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  #154  
Old 10-27-2007, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by diamondBrg View Post
I don't want to inhibit anyone from dreaming and working to achieve their dreams, that is one of the things that makes life very worthwhile.

I know for me, I became a much happier person, I felt more fulfilled, at peace and content when I not only intellectually accepted that life is not fair in most respects but I internalized it as well.

Even if Beatrixfan gets his desire and the Monarchy is abolished, while I do admire the British people and what they have accomplished in their very long history, they do and will continue to have a class system and pecking order like every other society, it is just human nature. Human beings will always as a whole group want to have more money than others, drive nicer cars than others, wear nicer clothes than others, etc, etc. There will always be wealthy people and well connected people who want to remain aloof and "better than" and most often have the cash and political power to do so. That is just life.
Then you've accepted defeat. If that works for you then have a gin on me but I don't agree that we can't beat the rich guys so why bother. Every society has a class system, you're right - but in a truly modern country it's those who have worked to get to the top who are at the top. Though everyone deserves a basic standard of living, the rich and the poor will always be with us - what I don't accept and is a fundamental part of the monarchy is that some are desperately poor whilst some are extortionately rich and haven't even worked to be entitled to that wealth.
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  #155  
Old 10-27-2007, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
Benjamin, loved the paper but keeping the peerage? Even if I could get over my anti-monarchy sentiment, I'll never be happy with the idea of a bunch of con artists who have bought their arse's onto the red benches, having the ability to stop legislation that I really need. And they've done it recently.
Thanks ysbel & BeatrixFan.

Labour is the largest political party in the Lords now, isn't it? There's only 90-something hereditary peers. They don't have that much influence.
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  #156  
Old 10-27-2007, 10:55 PM
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Lets see here, taking your figure of 8.3 million MILLIONAIRES out of a population of over 300 MILLION + people, hmmmm, that is about 2.77% of the population, so you would have to be in the top half of the overall top 10% of the total US population to be in that club. Sure doesn't sound very egalitarian and democratic to me.

Put another way, you have a 97.23% chance NOT TO BE IN THAT ELITE GROUP.

So tell me again how if you just work real hard you can make it? Are you saying that 97.23% of the US population are lazy, shiftless bums?
Do you think that only millionaires are important. You are the one who said there are few Clinton's. There is a vast population between that and the poverty level. I just used those statistics to say there are more out there that have a great deal. And don't be ridculous, just because you may never become a millionaire doesn't make you anything of the sort, the lazy, shiftless bum. All societies are divided into substructures. Money is a great equalizer, but not in societies that hand out titles at birth and tell you you are better. When I use the word Lord, it is for God, eveyone else has a name. Majesty, Lord, Highness, seeks to make some people better from the get go. All Beatrix Fan want is to see a more level playing field.
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  #157  
Old 10-27-2007, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
Then you've accepted defeat. If that works for you then have a gin on me but I don't agree that we can't beat the rich guys so why bother. Every society has a class system, you're right - but in a truly modern country it's those who have worked to get to the top who are at the top. Though everyone deserves a basic standard of living, the rich and the poor will always be with us - what I don't accept and is a fundamental part of the monarchy is that some are desperately poor whilst some are extortionately rich and haven't even worked to be entitled to that wealth.
I understand Beatrixfan, I was absolutely CONVINCED when I graduated from college and I do mean the day that I did, that within 48 hours I would be receiving multiple phone calls and letters in the mail box with job offers, I had also decided and this was 1980, that I would accept the FIRST ONE that came in that offered me $75,000.00 a year. To my astonishment, NOT ONE!!

I was also convinced that within 2 at tops 5 years with my generation hitting the scene there would be a DRAMATIC overhaul in society, fairness, equality and opportunity would reign supreme, somehow it didn't happen.

I was also certain that gay people would at last, by 1985 at the very latest, receive full legal equality in the US. It was 2000 when the US Supreme Court finally ruled that states (including my home state of Texas) could not make consensual sex between adults criminal. I am still waiting for something approaching equality where I live in my legal standing and that of my relationship. :) I have learned to be grateful for being able to live safely and for the most part freely and not have to be concerned about being beaten while I walk down the street minding my own business. I vividly remember when that was not the case.
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  #158  
Old 10-27-2007, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
As long as their Labour, Conservative or Liberal Democrat. We elect our MPs and our Prime Minister yet our Head of State we're not allowed to? If we can be trusted to make the right decision with MPs then we should be trusted to make the right decision with a Head of State.
No, it's not that we can't be trusted, it's that they can't. When you have a position as powerful as that of a president, you need it to be filled by someone who can afford to look at the long term and who's secure enough to represent the entire country. It's been shown time after time that party politicians, with a few notable exceptions, aren't up to the challenge.

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And for every MP we have, there's a Lord. One unelected Lord to undo everything the elected MP can do. Very democratic.
The Lords can't undo everything the MPs can do. It isn't an elected chamber (although these days most of the lords are appointed), so they don't have the power that MPs have. Equally, the monarch doesn't have even the powers that the Lords have; it's not as though someone was inheriting a position where major decisions about the future of the country are made. The British monarch is the colleague most Prime Ministers have said they greatly appreciate because s/he is the one person who doesn't have ambitions to step into the PM's job, who doesn't have a party political axe to grind, who can be objective about policies and look at the long-term consequences, and who can act as a guide and mentor for new PMs. The monarch can also take some of the weight of ceremony and official entertaining off the shoulders of the PM and can be a focus for the nation when party politics start turning ugly.
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  #159  
Old 10-27-2007, 11:00 PM
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Do you think that only millionaires are important. You are the one who said there are few Clinton's. There is a vast population between that and the poverty level. I just used those statistics to say there are more out there that have a great deal. And don't be ridculous, just because you may never become a millionaire doesn't make you anything of the sort, the lazy, shiftless bum. All societies are divided into substructures. Money is a great equalizer, but not in societies that hand out titles at birth and tell you you are better. When I use the word Lord, it is for God, eveyone else has a name. Majesty, Lord, Highness, seeks to make some people better from the get go. All Beatrix Fan want is to see a more level playing field.
You are mistaken, that was not me who made that statement, but I do agree with it. You are the one who cited the number of millionaires, I expanded on that and put it into overall perspective.

Money is a great equalizer IF you have it. :)
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  #160  
Old 10-27-2007, 11:02 PM
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I'm the one who used Bill Clinton in the context of a head of state versus a monarch in highlighing the difference between the two systems. I don't know what you mean by "only millionaires are important", you're the one who brought up the subject of millionaires. No system is perfect, so I'm not for or against anything. I've stated from the get go that I agree in the fundamental principle that BeatrixFan is argueing for, and that unless there is a majority that shares his views, not much can be done for now.
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