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  #161  
Old 05-18-2015, 02:14 PM
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If he had not abdicated, Elizabeth II would be queen today as Edward VIII had no children of his own and princess Elizabeth survived his father. The only difference is that she would have become queen 20 years or so later.
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  #162  
Old 05-18-2015, 02:24 PM
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Maybe if Edward VIII hadn't abdicated *and* still married Wallis, then marriage to a divorcee had been acceptable from then on and P.Charles would have married Camilla a lot sooner and we would not have known Diana Spencer?
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  #163  
Old 05-18-2015, 02:46 PM
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Maybe if Edward VIII hadn't abdicated *and* still married Wallis, then marriage to a divorcee had been acceptable from then on and P.Charles would have married Camilla a lot sooner and we would not have known Diana Spencer?

Charles' decision not to marry Camilla sooner was extremely complicated, but even if the attitude had been different sooner we still would have seen Diana in the picture, or at least a wife for Charles who wasn't Camilla - Camilla wasn't a divorced woman until 1995.

If Edward had been allowed to marry Wallis without an abdication, it would have changed Princess Margaret's marriage. She wanted to marry a divorced man and was forced to give him up, leading to her marriage to Anthony.
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  #164  
Old 05-18-2015, 03:26 PM
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From what I've gleaned from the postings so far, basically we would have ended up at today with Queen Elizabeth II and things pretty much as they are now. Perhaps Bertie would have lived a longer life and we'd not have the beloved Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother but the Duchess of York who was the mother of the Queen. Maybe Andrew would then have become a Duke but a different Duke than of York.

Now I've got a question that perhaps those that know far more than I can answer. Supposing that Albert as the Duke of York was already deceased in this scenario I've painted when Andrew went to be married. With a widow such as Elizabeth, The Duchess of York, and her husband being deceased with his title The Duke of York merging once again with the crown, is the title itself open for a recreation even though there is a widow in the picture able to use the widowed form of the title? Dowager Duchess of York? Perhaps this part of my post belongs in the Questions about British titles and styles so feel free to move if it pleases the moderators.

One think I do think we need to keep remembering as far as Charles marrying Camilla back then is that it was totally taken out of Charles' hands no matter what anyone else thought. Camilla made a choice back then and it was her choice to marry Andrew Parker-Bowles.
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  #165  
Old 05-18-2015, 03:41 PM
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You had dowagers Duchesses of Kent and Gloucester with new Duke and Duchess. The only difference is the dowager is the Duke's grandmother instead of mother. Philip could have a different title in this scenario too. He is not marrying the direct heir like he was in real life so maybe no Dukedom for him but a less title from Uncle David.


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  #166  
Old 05-18-2015, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Now I've got a question that perhaps those that know far more than I can answer. Supposing that Albert as the Duke of York was already deceased in this scenario I've painted when Andrew went to be married. With a widow such as Elizabeth, The Duchess of York, and her husband being deceased with his title The Duke of York merging once again with the crown, is the title itself open for a recreation even though there is a widow in the picture able to use the widowed form of the title? Dowager Duchess of York? Perhaps this part of my post belongs in the Questions about British titles and styles so feel free to move if it pleases the moderators.
Typically, British titles aren't recreated when anyone still alive is associated with it - so, when Andrew dies and his title becomes extinct, there won't likely be another "Duke of York" until after Beatrice and Eugenie also pass as they'll still technically be "of York", even if they've married and ceased using the designation.

Now, in the case of Andrew and the title things might have been treated a bit differently given as he was the grandson of the last Duke of York, instead of a more distant relative or someone not connected at all. But, I think more likely when he married he would have been given a different title owing to the fact that by the time he did marry Charles already had two sons and his grandmother was still alive and doing fairly well. I think the title would have been saved for Harry and Andrew would have gotten something else.

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You had dowagers Duchesses of Kent and Gloucester with new Duke and Duchess. The only difference is the dowager is the Duke's grandmother instead of mother. Philip could have a different title in this scenario too. He is not marrying the direct heir like he was in real life so maybe no Dukedom for him but a less title from Uncle David.
There is a huge difference actually. The titles Duke of Kent and Gloucester both passed naturally from father to son. Neither title went extinct, so it was natural for there to be a Dowager Duchess, a Duke, and a Duchess (although, actually neither Princesses Marina nor Princess Alice used the title "Dowager Duchess"; on her son's marriage Marina requested to be known as Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent which was granted, then upon her husband's passing Alice requested that she be known similarly, as Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester). Had George VI not become King then when he died, without sons, his title would have gone extinct and would have to have been recreated in order to be used. Typically titles aren't recreated while others are still alive and associated with a title - at the time of Andrew's marriage there would have still been the Dowager Duchess of York (the Queen Mum) and Princess Margaret of York. Furthermore, by that time (if the births and deaths remained the same) the heir apparent, Charles, would have already had 2 sons, so they may have chosen to just save the title for Harry.

As for the DoE's title... he may have still been created a Duke, although perhaps not of Edinburgh, on his marriage. He might not have been marrying the King's daughter, but by the time he got married it would have been pretty obvious that Princess Elizabeth of York would one day become Queen.
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  #167  
Old 05-18-2015, 05:57 PM
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With regards to the Camilla question: If Edward had married Wallis and remained King the idea that Camilla was unsuitable would probably not have been suggested to Charles and so he may have fought harder for her in the early 70s.


I doubt that he would have ended up with Diana though as the example of a special type of lady only would have gone out the window generations earlier and his choice would have widened so that girls with a past weren't out of the question and thus he could easily have married earlier and thus never have had Diana in his life.
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  #168  
Old 05-19-2015, 12:19 AM
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I think Charles let Camilla slip through his fingers. He wasn't ready to settle down. She tired of waiting.
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  #169  
Old 05-19-2015, 12:25 AM
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Before this goes any further, if you want to discuss Charles and Camilla's relationship, please do so in one of the many threads in their own forum.
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  #170  
Old 05-19-2015, 12:40 AM
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A big hearty thank you to all who responded to my question about the "what ifs" around the Duke of York title. If there's anywhere I could go to ask that type of a question, TRF is *the* place to do it.
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  #171  
Old 12-21-2015, 12:10 PM
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Edward, Prince of Wales as a result of mumps was sterile and so the Duke and Duchess of York would have succeeded to the throne and Princess Elizabeth would have become Queen even if the abdication had not happened.
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  #172  
Old 12-21-2015, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Esclarmonde1 View Post
Edward, Prince of Wales as a result of mumps was sterile and so the Duke and Duchess of York would have succeeded to the throne and Princess Elizabeth would have become Queen even if the abdication had not happened.
What is the source and the backing for that? Wallis was 42 when she married Edward and for sure back the in the 1930's this was a very advanced age for a pregnancy. In none of her three marriages Wallis has given birth to a child. So it is interesting to know what your fundament is for the claim that the King was sterile?
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  #173  
Old 12-21-2015, 01:40 PM
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The same argument applies to Edward, while not married he was sexually active and yet no children resulted from his numerous liaisons leading some to theorize that he was left sterile after contracting mumps when he was a teenager.
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  #174  
Old 12-21-2015, 02:04 PM
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The same argument applies to Edward, while not married he was sexually active and yet no children resulted from his numerous liaisons leading some to theorize that he was left sterile after contracting mumps when he was a teenager.
Is there proof for the sexual activity of the then Prince of Wales?
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  #175  
Old 12-21-2015, 02:27 PM
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I wasn't there and as far as I know Edward was not filmed or photographed in flagrante delicto, however when words like mistress, lover, seduction and promiscuity are used in books, articles and documentaries I tend to think sexual activity has occurred.
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  #176  
Old 12-21-2015, 02:54 PM
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He had several high profile affairs AFAIR including with a married textile heiress who later went on to be tried for killing her husband. I believe his father was quoted as saying his son would bring himself down in 12 months, when he died, due to his affairs with married women. He ha an affair with Lady Furness who was the one who introduced him to Wallis.
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  #177  
Old 12-21-2015, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
He had several high profile affairs AFAIR including with a married textile heiress who later went on to be tried for killing her husband. I believe his father was quoted as saying his son would bring himself down in 12 months, when he died, due to his affairs with married women. He ha an affair with Lady Furness who was the one who introduced him to Wallis.
Interesting tidbit of trivia regarding Lady Thelma Furness. She is the great aunt of CNN's Anderson "The Silver Fox" Cooper.
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  #178  
Old 12-21-2015, 03:59 PM
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^ Edward's Private Secretary became enraged when the Prince was on a trip to Africa but refused to rush back to Britain on receiving the news that his father was quite ill. The reason, as his Secretary noted in his diary, was Edward's fling with the young wife of a colonial official. He was reluctant to leave her and finally was persuaded to go back with a very bad grace.
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  #179  
Old 12-21-2015, 04:09 PM
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Interesting tidbit of trivia regarding Lady Thelma Furness. She is the great aunt of CNN's Anderson "The Silver Fox" Cooper.
Yep. I have always been interested in Anderson and his family since seeing him on Oprah. Lady Furness was not only the sister of his maternal grandmother, they were identical twins.
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  #180  
Old 12-21-2015, 05:20 PM
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It is very well possible that the Prince of Wales had deep but platonic friendships, precisely because he was the Prince of Wales and always and ever had the prying eyes of his parents and their spies (the Household) in his back. I can not believe the Prince of Wales lying between the legs of Lady A and the Lady B. He never had the reputation of a womanizer and was a far cry from his grandfather King Edward VII, in that aspect.
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