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  #421  
Old 10-05-2014, 01:17 AM
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Elizabeth's parents already had 4 sons when Elizabeth was born so it wasn't like Downton Abbey where you need a male heir or you lost your estate to some third cousin.


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  #422  
Old 10-05-2014, 01:29 AM
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I have never heard anything more ridiculous than those fairy tales in Lady Colin Campbell's book. I refuse to buy any of her 'biographies'.

She asserted that the Duke and Duchess of Windsor called the Queen Mother 'Cookie' as some sort of sarcastic reference to her true mother being the Cook at Glamis. In fact it was in reference to Scots cooks baking a lot of bannocks, shortbread etc. which made people, including the Queen Mother, plump.

I do think the Queen Mother was very conservative politically. She supported Chamberlain and liked him personally. She wasn't so sure about Churchill at first.

She also held views on race that certainly wouldn't be acceptable today. However, they were much more common when Elizabeth was a young woman. She was always a great success when she went to various places like the West Indies on behalf of her daughter, so I suppose she was good at masking such views.

She was justly admired for her stance during the war and being a rock to her husband, who didn't have much self confidence.
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  #423  
Old 10-05-2014, 02:09 AM
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Yep, she's been dead long enough for the muck-rakers to start the deconstruction of a true icon.

She was racist, cruel (even to her children), she was ambitious and vile to Wallis Simpson because she hated her, not because of the abdication, but because she wanted David for herself and married Bertie as a consolation prize . . . oh I forgot, she was also the illiegitimate daughter of the Bowes Lyons cook according to Lady Colin Campbell, or Welsh maid working in Scotland, according to Kitty Kelly. (It's always nice to know the origin of some of these pearls of wisdom)

Now if any of the above, which is unfortunately just the tip of the iceberg, were to be backed up by credible witness or record, I would be interested in the dichotomy that marked the nature of Elizabeth Bowes Lyon. Now Lady Colin Campbell thought that Cecillia Glamis, broken hearted over her inability to provide a ninth or tenth child, sent hubby off to the cook. Or, if you believe Kitty Kelly, the Welsh maid.

Hello, even way back then eight children were more than enough to cover the heir and spare.
MARG, I do not believe in all this ridiculous nonsense that Lady Colin Campbell writes about, I have not even read any of her books. I do not think that The Queen Mother hated Wallis Simpson, or wanted David for herself. I dont think she was cruel to her children, both The Queen and Margaret adored their mother.
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  #424  
Old 10-05-2014, 04:03 AM
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I never thought you did. I just get antsy when the ubiquitous "they" start deconstructing people. Sort of like tall poppy syndrome.

She was racist . . . she was born in 1900. Racism wasn't something that would impinge on her life except when concerning the Commonwealth and India, in which case they were "concerned whether the natives were capable of democracy". Actually, the paternalistic attitude covered all of the "Colonies", including Australia and New Zealand! She, like much everyone else of her status and rank had a hard time when "The natives were revolting", and then she was the same as anyone else . . . adjusting.

She thought she was better than others . . . she said in a letter she was proud of the staff after a near miss with a bomb. She wasn't patronising them as unlike them, she had a choice and her choice was to stay in London, the servants didn't have a choice, they needed to work to live.

It is easy for people to look back with the comfort of 20/20 hindsight and use words like racism, etc. I just remember that my grandmother never did believe that men had landed on the moon and packed her bag to leave when she heard the Maori Battalion were coming home.
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  #425  
Old 10-05-2014, 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted by ROYAL NORWAY View Post
MARG, I do not believe in all this ridiculous nonsense that Lady Colin Campbell writes about, I have not even read any of her books. I do not think that The Queen Mother hated Wallis Simpson, or wanted David for herself. I dont think she was cruel to her children, both The Queen and Margaret adored their mother.
I think the Queen Mother hated Wallis, but I don't think it had anything to do with her wanting David for herself. David and Wallis' actions went against the system that the Queen Mother belonged to and displayed a blatant disregard for the sense of duty that she so clearly had. The abdication put the Queen Mother's husband in a hugely difficult position that (if I recall right) the Queen Mother blamed for his early death. Add to that the fact that Wallis and the Queen Mother were very different personality types and had very different backgrounds it's only natural to say that they probably had a rather mutual hatred of each other.
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  #426  
Old 10-05-2014, 12:41 PM
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Yes! She was a lot of things. I will not say too much about this. My mother is British and this is stuff I've heard from family members who have worked for the royal family.
Sad. It seems as though QE II is not like this at all though. Good for her.
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Originally Posted by MARG View Post
Yep, she's been dead long enough for the muck-rakers to start the deconstruction of a true icon.

She was racist, cruel (even to her children), she was ambitious and vile to Wallis Simpson because she hated her, not because of the abdication, but because she wanted David for herself and married Bertie as a consolation prize
Simpson wasn't much better than her...but you are right of course, her snubbing of Wallis had just as much to do with jealousy as snobbery.

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. . . oh I forgot, she was also the illiegitimate daughter of the Bowes Lyons cook according to Lady Colin Campbell, or Welsh maid working in Scotland, according to Kitty Kelly. (It's always nice to know the origin of some of these pearls of wisdom)
That one never made much sense to me - why'd her parents would go through all of that in order to have another child, especially when they have several.

Another thing which annoyed me about the Queen Mother (and she was a real mother all right...) was her awful teeth. They say she rarely brushed them, and loved sweets and pink champagne. Especially in her later years. She made Queen Margrethe of Denmark look like a model in a Colgate ad.
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  #427  
Old 10-05-2014, 01:32 PM
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In terms of racism, QEQM's attitude really wasn't much different than was the norm not only in the UK, but also in the US. On the other side of the coin though, I think she was far more tolerant of homosexuality than a lot of people of that era were. Heck, growing up in the 50s and 60s, either I had a very secluded childhood or homosexuality just wasn't talked about in the open at all.

As far as Wallis goes, I think Elizabeth knew all too well even before any hint of the abdication that the romance between David and Wallis reeked of troubles to come and for that reason, she avoided "that woman" like the plague. Not only because of the prevalent social norms and the stigma a divorced woman carried but also she knew very well that she was married to a man that in no uncertain terms wanted to be King and dreadfully feared speaking in crowds should an abdication occur. After the abdication, if I remember right, she harbored ill feelings towards Wallis as she acutely believed that it was Bertie's role as King that sent him to an early grave due to stress (along with heavy smoking). Nevertheless, she stood behind him through everything and I do think George VI would have been totally lost without her.

I think if I had to pick one word that would describe her, it would be stalwart
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  #428  
Old 10-05-2014, 01:57 PM
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I don't remember the Queen Mum. But I was looking at a book about her the other day, and she reminds me a lot of Princess Diana- the way she gave people her full attention, and listened to them. Both were very different, but both seemed to sprinkle fairy dust around, and make people feel special! Behind the grandness , she seemed pretty down to earth . Even if she was from a different age. And no one could do formal Eveningwear like the Queen Mum! Wow!
BTW, I read on the thread about Lady Colin Campbell. I don't read her books either. The one I did read about Diana was... vile. I would not call that woman a lady.
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  #429  
Old 10-05-2014, 02:50 PM
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Interesting posts. What seems to happen is that modern attitudes/beliefs get imposed on people from a different era - be that racism or bad teeth!

She lived by the norms of her youth - and to me she never changed. Brought up by Victorians, lived the Victorian/Edwardian life style of her peer group and did that till she died.
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  #430  
Old 10-05-2014, 03:32 PM
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Interesting posts. What seems to happen is that modern attitudes/beliefs get imposed on people from a different era - be that racism or bad teeth!

She lived by the norms of her youth - and to me she never changed. Brought up by Victorians, lived the Victorian/Edwardian life style of her peer group and did that till she died.
I agree, always the danger when looking back and judging people/situations in hindsight (same goes for other cultures )

And the teeth thing, pardon me for saying, but when i see a comment like it and look at the country of the poster...up until now i've always guessed the country correct that really *is* a culture thing
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  #431  
Old 10-05-2014, 04:21 PM
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I agree, always the danger when looking back and judging people/situations in hindsight (same goes for other cultures )
I don't see a danger in it it at all. I think comments like "oh, well that is just the way that people were" is dismissive of the sentiment of people who were and are opposed to that way of thinking.

Quote:
And the teeth thing, pardon me for saying, but when i see a comment like it and look at the country of the poster...up until now i've always guessed the country correct that really *is* a culture thing
And it's something I'll never feel guilty about either . Never, Lee-Z, not in this day and age. People from her own country have criticized it; don't single me out because I'm American.
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  #432  
Old 10-05-2014, 04:24 PM
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I'll never understand why the late Queen Mother allowed her teeth to go so bad. My teeth hurt when I looked at pictures of her teeth.

That being said, I liked how elegant she remained throughout her life. Even in old age, she tried to keep a certain elegance about her. She loved her jewels and I wonder how she felt when the family stopped wearing the family heirlooms at certain official events.
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  #433  
Old 10-05-2014, 06:31 PM
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Teeth- you and me both!
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  #434  
Old 10-05-2014, 07:27 PM
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Her teeth weren't that bad. I mean, sure they weren't the greatest colour, especially from a North American view, but they weren't rotted out and obviously she was still able to use them, otherwise she would have had dentures.
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  #435  
Old 10-05-2014, 07:35 PM
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Maybe its just me but aren't there other aspects of the Queen Mother that are far more worthwhile to talk about than her physical appearance and her teeth? Are we really that ingrained into how a person looks and presents themselves that we make that a focus? C'mon people. Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon made a remarkable impact on the British Royal Family and I'm sure the state of her teeth didn't bother her one iota.
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  #436  
Old 10-05-2014, 07:51 PM
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we dont make comment about physical aspects of alive and kicking royals (too fat; too thin; teeth etc) as this is deemed too personal and not allowed on this forum.

Why can we do it once they are dead?
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  #437  
Old 10-05-2014, 08:02 PM
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I don't see a danger in it it at all. I think comments like "oh, well that is just the way that people were" is dismissive of the sentiment of people who were and are opposed to that way of thinking.

It's not that we should dismiss it, but the age in which a person lived does play a part in who they were. I guess I'm talking about putting together a more nuanced view of history.

But I definitely take your point about not unduly lionizing those of the past.
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  #438  
Old 10-05-2014, 08:26 PM
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Maybe its just me but aren't there other aspects of the Queen Mother that are far more worthwhile to talk about than her physical appearance and her teeth? Are we really that ingrained into how a person looks and presents themselves that we make that a focus? C'mon people. Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon made a remarkable impact on the British Royal Family and I'm sure the state of her teeth didn't bother her one iota.

Talking about her teeth takes nothing away from the brilliance of her role as Queen Consort and Queen Mother. I just never understood why her teeth was that color. It was something I always wanted to mention for some reason.
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  #439  
Old 10-05-2014, 08:34 PM
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Talking about her teeth takes nothing away from the brilliance of her role as Queen Consort and Queen Mother. I just never understood why her teeth was that color. It was something I always wanted to mention for some reason.
Because she lived to 101. She had no comestic work done to them.
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  #440  
Old 10-05-2014, 08:37 PM
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I don't see a danger in it it at all. I think comments like "oh, well that is just the way that people were" is dismissive of the sentiment of people who were and are opposed to that way of thinking.

And it's something I'll never feel guilty about either . Never, Lee-Z, not in this day and age. People from her own country have criticized it; don't single me out because I'm American.
QEQM was born in 1900. By the time the Civil Rights movement started in the 1950s and Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat in 1955 here in the US, the Queen Mum was already a widow and in her 50s. It really does go to show just how much progress we have made in human rights in just a half a century eh?
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