The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Reigning Houses > British Royals

Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #21  
Old 10-20-2005, 08:11 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,736
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
Philip - Well, his mother was Princess Alice - her mother was Russian and she was born in Russia - either that or her father was Russian and so was her mother - again, the 2/3 ratio was used. (I'm so bogged down in notes!) She was more Russian than German. Therefore, by maternal line, Philip is Russian. By Paternal Line he is Danish. By Jus Soli, he is Greek. But if his fathers nationality was determined by Jus Soli then he would be Greek!

I think Norwegianne, that you're right - I need to break each persons family tree down - I am going to go into more detail and it may take alot of time so I hope everyone will stick with the topic and join in!
Huh?? Princess Alice was thoroughly German, not Russian. Her mother, HGDH Princess Victoria of Hesse, was the daughter of HRH Princess Alice and HGDH Grand Duke Louis IV of Hesse. Her father, HSH Prince Louis of Battenberg, was the son of HSH Prince Alexander of Battenberg and his morganatic Polish wife, the former Julie von Haucke, later Princess Battenberg.

Alice married HRH Prince Andrew of Greece and Denmark. He was Danish (and German and Dutch) through his father, HRH Prince William of Denmark, later George, King of the Hellenes, and Russian through his mother, HIH Grand Duchess Olga of Russia.

According to Hugo Vickers, Prince Philip is half German, one quarter Danish and one quarter Russian.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 10-20-2005, 08:19 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Marmalade
This is a very interesting topic. It looks as though you are determining by blood and not country born as to the actual heritage in that respect.

William, due to Diana and the Scottish coming from his paternal great-grandmother, the Queen Mother, will be the most "British English" King in a very long time.

Up until Queen Elizabeth, there was much sentiment by the aristocracy as looking at the royal family as "foreigners" due to the German blood.

Diana herself was quoted as when she was upset at the Royals she always referred to them as "those Germans".
This is true. By marrying Lady Diana Spencer, Charles restored English (actually Stuart) blood to the British throne with the birth of his children. His grandfather, George VI, started it when he married Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, as did his great-uncle, Prince Henry, Duke of Gloucester, when he married Lady Alice Montagu-Scott.

With the death of the Queen and her cousins' generation, the next two generations of the royal family will truly be British.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 10-20-2005, 08:33 PM
Zonk's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere in, United States
Posts: 10,196
It is a great topic! My hat off to you for trying to figure it out. When ever I start to ponder how all the royals are related..i get confused!
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 10-21-2005, 08:41 AM
BeatrixFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 6,843
Re:

Thanks to you all for the input.

I've decided that the only way to deal with this is to go from Alfred the Great to William (V). This will give a basic nationality for each Monarch since Alfred. Then, I'll create a family tree with all Royals and add their nationalities etc below. Again, it's deciding a start and finish point.

Princess Alice - my fault over the confusion! Prince Philip's paternal nationality is a choice between Russian, Greek and Danish. Russian because Prince Andrew's father had a maternal nationality of Russian. Therefore, based on Maternal nationality, he would be Russian and this would form the paternal nationality of Prince Philip. Philip could be Greek by Jus Soli, but by his paternal line again, his father was born in Greece (Jus Soli) but Andrew's father was Danish.

I couldn't find why I thought she was Russian and it was a slip on my part!

Now you see how hard it is!

I've got another project on the go, which is a vast family tree which shows how the Royal Families are all related but it really is hopeless! It means going from Gorm the Old etc to work forward, not backwards.

So hopefully, my nationality investigation will provide an answer but it will only provide one from Alfred the Great. :)
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 10-21-2005, 09:36 AM
Warren's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 15,395
Forget about the hate, what about "Fat Mary"?

Granted, she was born in Hanover, but considered herself to be an English Princess, and spent most of her life in England, apart from the short-lived "retirement" to Florence to escape the creditors.

I am sure if you included an "English quotient" (conveniently undefined) you may be able to boost Queen Mary's standing from all-German to just "part-German". Allowing also for the fact that the Duke of Teck was half-Hungarian, the German factor is even more diluted. Easy!
.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 10-21-2005, 11:12 AM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren
Forget about the hate, what about "Fat Mary"?

Granted, she was born in Hanover, but considered herself to be an English Princess, and spent most of her life in England, apart from the short-lived "retirement" to Florence to escape the creditors.

I am sure if you included an "English quotient" (conveniently undefined) you may be able to boost Queen Mary's standing from all-German to just "part-German". Allowing also for the fact that the Duke of Teck was half-Hungarian, the German factor is even more diluted. Easy!
Well, Princess Mary was both a Princess of Hanover and the UK, but was German. Queen Mary's father was half-Hungarian and half-German, so there's no question that she is mostly German.

The Stuarts were the last truly English and Scottish sovereigns. With the Act of Settlement, the throne became German in 1714 and has slowly been returning to English and Scottish blood royal through intermarriage.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 10-21-2005, 11:38 AM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 365
Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
This is true. By marrying Lady Diana Spencer, Charles restored English (actually Stuart) blood to the British throne with the birth of his children. ...
A minor correction--the Stuart blood has been present in all British sovereigns, because the Hanoverians were descendants of James I and VI. William is the first British royal for a long time who is descended from Charles I and Charles II as well.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 10-21-2005, 11:52 AM
BeatrixFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 6,843
Second Draft

This is my second investigation. On this one, I did things a little differently.

I decided to start at Alfred the Great and used the Jus Soli rule - wherever a person was born, that was their nationality.

For Example;

Edward VII

His Paternal Nationality is German
His Maternal Nationality is English*
His Jus Soli Nationality is English

*Based on Jus Soli not on nationality of mother and father

So, what we have is a tree based on Jus Soli that can be used in various ways. If you want to determine nationality by paternal line, then follow the blue nationalities, making changes as you go - do the opposite for maternal.

The Lines do not show 'The Son/Daughter of' but just seperate each Monarch.













As you can see, there have been several breaks in the 'English' Monarchs.

The First Break comes after Edward II - he was succeeded by the Danish King Canute resulting in Danish Monarchs.

This is again broken after HarthaCanute - he was succeeded by the English King, Edward the Confessor.

This is broken by the Hungarian Edgar II. After Edgar, we get William the Conqueror - the first French King of England.

The line goes back and forth between French and English Monarchs until Henry II when it seems to stablise. English Monarchs reign until James I, who is the first Scottish King of England.

From Charles I - William III, the English line is unbroken. William III is Dutch, but the line once again goes back to the English with the accession of Queen Anne.

Germans then come into play. George I and George II are German Kings of England interrupted by George III. He stablises the line resulting in English Monarchs up until today.

HOWEVER, that is only based on the use of Jus Soli which is the official way of determining nationality (lucky for the British Royal Family). The Jus Soli rule means that they can boast English nationality since George III - or can they? If based on Maternal Nationality, things are little different - and again, based on Paternal Nationality, things are different.

Paternally, Alfred the Great is again, a true English King. The Line continues to Canute - the Danish King. This means that Harold I and HarthaCanute are Danish, as is every other monarch until William I, a French King.
French Monarchs reign until Henry VII - a huge space in time.

Henry VII is the first true English King since Alfred the Great, after a period of French and Danish Monarchs. His Son, Henry VIII and Henry VIII's children, Edward VI, Mary I and Elizabeth I all enjoy being pure English Monarchs based on paternal nationality. The English monarchs continue until William III - Dutch of course. Queen Anne takes the line back to the English until George I when we get our German Monarchs.

George I is the first German monarch. And he is totally German as far as paternal lines go. It means that every monarch since George I has been German including Queen Elizabeth II.

Her son will be the first Greek King of England based on his father's paternal nationality.

The Maternal Line proves to be even more colourful!

From Alfred the Great to Edmund II all is well. English through and through. Canute interrupts the English Kings but based on maternal nationality, the English Kings continue through until Edgar II.

William the Conqueror comes along and begins the French line. His wife, Mathilda of Flanders, is French. This makes William II French, and Henry I, French Kings of England.

King Stephen is also French and the French line continues through until Edward II who is Spanish through his mother, Eleanor of Castille. By marrying Isabella of France, Edward secures the French line which carries on until Henry IV - who is English - the English Kings return.

Every King is English until Henry V. He marries Catherine of Valois. His son is Henry VI who is once again a French King of England.

The English Kings return under Edward IV but based on maternal nationality, Edward's son, Edward V is Luxembourgish. The first Luxembourgish King of England.

Richard III restores the English line which continues through to George I. Even the Dutch William III had an English mother and so maternally, was an English King of England.

George I isn't a German King, rather, he is a Dutch King. By marrying Sophia of Celle, he makes the line German. This continues until Edward VII who marries the Danish, Alexandra.

George V is Danish, but by marrying the German (through maternal line) Mary, he ensures that his sons, Edward VIII and George VI are German. Elizabeth II becomes an English Queen through her English mother, Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon. This secures that Charles III will be and English King, and through his first wife, his son, William V will also be an English King.

TO SUM UP

By using the Jus Soli method, the current Queen is most definately English.
By using the Paternal method, the current Queen is most definately German.
By Using the Maternal method, the current Queen is most definately English.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 10-21-2005, 11:56 AM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago, United States
Posts: 1,532
And what is great as we said before is you will see for the first time in centuries, a king who is almost wholly British in some form in his blood heritage, when William comes to the throne.

The Hanoverian features once so prominent on the royals are slowly disappearing with each generation as well. The family needed the fresh infusion of blood from commoners they married.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 10-21-2005, 12:01 PM
BeatrixFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 6,843
Re:

Quote:
And what is great as we said before is you will see for the first time in centuries, a king who is almost wholly British in some form in his blood heritage, when William comes to the throne.
It does seem that way Lady Marmalade. William V has an English Mother and an English Father. Or does he? Based on Paternal Line, he doesn't. Remember, that by following paternal line - Prince Charles is Greek - that makes his sons Greek - Prince William will be the second Greek King of England, after his father.
By Maternal Line, William is English through Diana.
By Jus Soli, he is English having been born in England.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 10-21-2005, 12:10 PM
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: ***, United States
Posts: 16,897
Just had a quick look at the chart. Edward VI didn't marry Lady Jane Grey, surely. She succeeded him for a week and then Mary came along and did her in.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 10-21-2005, 12:13 PM
BeatrixFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 6,843
Re:

Quote:
Just had a quick look at the chart. Edward VI didn't marry Lady Jane Grey, surely. She succeeded him for a week and then Mary came along and did her in.
Lol. Very true. According to most sources, they did marry. If they didn't, it's very easy to disregard her because she didn't give him any children or contribute to the Royal line in any way.

Do as Mary did and delete her!
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 10-21-2005, 12:17 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,736
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
It does seem that way Lady Marmalade. William V has an English Mother and an English Father. Or does he? Based on Paternal Line, he doesn't. Remember, that by following paternal line - Prince Charles is Greek - that makes his sons Greek - Prince William will be the second Greek King of England, after his father.
By Maternal Line, William is English through Diana.
By Jus Soli, he is English having been born in England.
Charles and William are not Greek. There is no such thing. The Royal House of Greece was imported from Denmark and through intermarriage is both German and Russian as well. None of the Greek royals have a drop of Greek blood.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 10-21-2005, 12:17 PM
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: ***, United States
Posts: 16,897
Quote:
Do as Mary did and delete her!
Heh! And why not!

Also, is it really correct that Lady Elizabeth Bowes Lyon is English across the board? British certainly, but surely Scottish rather than English in some of those cases.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 10-21-2005, 12:21 PM
BeatrixFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 6,843
Re:

Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
Charles and William are not Greek. There is no such thing. The Royal House of Greece was imported from Denmark and through intermarriage is both German and Russian as well. None of the Greek royals have a drop of Greek blood.
Actually, this isn't quite true but it is if you see what I mean.

George I of the Hellenes was Danish, so his sons were all Danish. This would make Prince Philip Danish and Princes Charles and William Danish also. However, if you use the rule of Jus Soli, then Prince Andrew of Greece was born on Greek soil and is therefore Greek, so is Prince Philip. However, Charles and William would be English by Jus Soli being born on English soil.

The key is to stick to one method and not flip. By Paternal Line, Charles and William are Danish but by Jus Soli they are Greek.

Thanks for pointing that out Branchg!

As for Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, she was born in England and by Jus Soli is English. Her father is English as far as I can see and her mother is too. But I'm willing to believe otherwise because the information is a bit hazy about her parents lineage. Again, how far does one go back?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 10-21-2005, 12:25 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,736
The Queen is half Scottish through her mother, and half German through her father. She has a thin bloodline of Stuart and English blood through the Hanovers and Saxe-Coburgs as well as her mother's side. Arguably, she is German-Scottish as is Charles.

William is far more English than the Blood Royal through his mother, who had one of the most eminent and aristocratic English bloodlines in the UK.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 10-21-2005, 12:30 PM
BeatrixFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 6,843
Re:

Thats the next step - half-x and half-y.

William isn't really more English than the Queen. His father is half-greek and his mother was English. As you say, the Queen's father was half-german and her mother was English (as far as I can find out, do you know where the scottish line comes in?). So, both the Queen and William half half-foreign blood and half-British blood.

In my opinion though! I don't think that getting into fractions is a good idea! The official ruling is that a persons nationality is decided by their birth place. Their heritage is a different matter altogether.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 10-21-2005, 12:39 PM
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: ***, United States
Posts: 16,897
Well, the Queen Mother is reputed to descend from King Robert Bruce, so there's some Scottish in there somewhere. The Lyon family are Scottish rather than English, aren't they?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 10-21-2005, 12:47 PM
BeatrixFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 6,843
Re:

This is where confusion comes in.

I decided the nationality of each individual based on birth place. Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon's immediate family were English, hence why she is listed as being 100% English. Go back a few centuries and you might find she is Scottish but it's hard to find that info and this really is an amateur study not a huge expert one - as I said originally, it only gives a basic result not a heavily detailed one. I would say its 75% reliable.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 10-21-2005, 01:00 PM
ysbel's Avatar
Heir Apparent
TRF Author
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: New York, United States
Posts: 5,390
This is a mammoth effort, thanks so much for putting it together!

One suggestion: If I were you, I would simplify the chart just a bit to show only the kings and queens that are ancestors of the current royal family and eliminate the ones that aren't so we can get a clearer picture of their heritage. (for example, I'd get rid of Edward VIII, William IV, George IV, Anne, Mary II, William II, Charles II, Elizabeth I, Mary I, Henry VIII, Lady Jane Grey because the current crowd isn't descended from them)

This chart is great for an overview of the history of the British monarchy but its a little confusing to follow when looking just for William's bloodlines.

Correction: I just saw that Diana was descended from Charles II but that was from an illegitimate child several generations ago and Diana is probably just as closely descended from French kings through her mother as she is from Charles II.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
british royal family, heritage, history, nationality


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Windsor/Windsor-Mountbatten: Name of Royal House and Surname HRH Kimetha British Royals 108 09-06-2014 07:56 PM
The Princely and Ducal House of Rohan Marengo Royal Families of France 18 08-23-2014 02:02 PM
Frogmore House, Windsor CatherineJ British Royal Residences 43 01-26-2014 04:17 PM
List of royal residences in the United Kingdom and Commonwealth Elspeth British Royal Residences 0 11-04-2008 03:30 PM




Additional Links
Popular Tags
abdication birth charlene chris o'neill crown prince felipe crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess letizia crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit current events duchess of cambridge dutch royal history engagement fashion grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri hohenzollern infanta elena infanta leonor infanta sofia jordan king abdullah ii king carl xvi gustav king constantine ii king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander luxembourg nobility olympic games ottoman pom president komorowski prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince felipe prince floris prince maurits prince pieter-christiaan princess aimee princess anita princess astrid princess beatrix princess charlene princess laurentien princess mabel princess madeleine princess marilene princess mary princess mary fashion queen anne-marie queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen rania queen silvia queen sofia royal royal fashion russia sofia hellqvist spain state visit wedding winter olympics 2014



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:38 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]