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  #1221  
Old 04-30-2016, 06:53 PM
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I don't think you can have read the linked paper. The King could use the royal prerogative to deprive Edward of his title of HRH, but what he could not do was to deprive Wallis of the title of HRH if Edward was an HRH - because, under the Common Law, which the monarch cannot override, Wallis took the rank, title and style of her husband. So, since Edward was undeniably an HRH from birth and did not (and could not) renounce that title, Wallis took the title HRH on her marriage to him. If you read the paper, you will see that the experts agree on this. PS The monarch is most definitely not the fount of all honour in this country. It's an interesting story but a long one.
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  #1222  
Old 04-30-2016, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by GrahamM View Post
I don't think you can have read the linked paper. The King could use the royal prerogative to deprive Edward of his title of HRH, but what he could not do was to deprive Wallis of the title of HRH if Edward was an HRH - because, under the Common Law, which the monarch cannot override, Wallis took the rank, title and style of her husband. So, since Edward was undeniably an HRH from birth and did not (and could not) renounce that title, Wallis took the title HRH on her marriage to him. If you read the paper, you will see that the experts agree on this. PS The monarch is most definitely not the fount of all honour in this country. It's an interesting story but a long one.
My compliments for your well-written and insightful post. I agree with you. Like under common law the spouse of a titled person can be addressed by her husband's title, this principle did count for Wallis like it counts for Marie-Christine Freiin von Reibnitz. But of course there is a difference in theory and practice.
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  #1223  
Old 04-30-2016, 07:31 PM
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Thank you for your reply. You say that 'a titled person can be addresses by her husband's title' but I am talking about the law; that is, what Wallis' title was IN LAW. There may be a difference between law and practice but that fact that practice (what is done) differs from the law (what is legal) does not alter the law.
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  #1224  
Old 04-30-2016, 07:50 PM
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The title couldn't be stopped - hence she was Duchess.

The style was stopped - and it was discussed about passing legislation (my great-uncle was in the government at the time and attended many of the relevant meetings - that is my source - many of those discussions were not recorded officially however) - and styles are the preserve of the monarch.

I don't need to 'read the linked papers' as I have studied and written on this topic (it was the basis of my Honours thesis for my BA at university in the 1970s using my great-uncles letters and correspondence as the basis of that thesis given his position.

The decision made by the government was that it was down to the King to decide - if he felt legislation was necessary to deprive her of the title but as the ruling from the relevant people at the time (as now with the Wessex children) is that all that is needed is for the monarch's will to be made known then that was all that was needed.

Common Law is not 'law' in a legislation sense but a body of practice developed through precedent. The King used a new precedent and Elizabeth has followed that precedence with the Wessex children and even with Camilla.
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  #1225  
Old 04-30-2016, 08:43 PM
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It was also a matter of social custom. If the King (and the Queen) made it known throughout Society that Wallis was not to be addressed as an HRH then who would have disobeyed? Certainly many of those people who were invited to Government House in the Bahamas years didn't, even if it did put them in a very awkward position sometimes.

I just get the feeling from everything that I have read that the animus towards Wallis as an adventuress and gold digger among members of the BRF was such that if King George had been told that she was indeed an HRH and nothing could be done short of legislation stripping Edward of his HRH, then that's what would have happened, sad though many members of the family would have been.

After everything that had happened the thought that 'that woman' was going to be curtsied to and fawned on as a royal person would have been sheer anathema to most Britons at the time and therefore they would have backed whatever it took to bring her down.
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  #1226  
Old 05-01-2016, 12:47 AM
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Edward VIII/The Duke of Windsor's behavior supports that Wallis did not automatically became HRH upon marrying Edward. He was reportedly devastated that his brother George VI did not grant her the HRH styling and even shed tears over it, and then continued to lobby his brother and others like Winston Churchill regarding the matter during wartime no less.
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  #1227  
Old 05-01-2016, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
The title couldn't be stopped - hence she was Duchess.

The style was stopped - and it was discussed about passing legislation (my great-uncle was in the government at the time and attended many of the relevant meetings - that is my source - many of those discussions were not recorded officially however) - and styles are the preserve of the monarch.

I don't need to 'read the linked papers' as I have studied and written on this topic (it was the basis of my Honours thesis for my BA at university in the 1970s using my great-uncles letters and correspondence as the basis of that thesis given his position.

The decision made by the government was that it was down to the King to decide - if he felt legislation was necessary to deprive her of the title but as the ruling from the relevant people at the time (as now with the Wessex children) is that all that is needed is for the monarch's will to be made known then that was all that was needed.

Common Law is not 'law' in a legislation sense but a body of practice developed through precedent. The King used a new precedent and Elizabeth has followed that precedence with the Wessex children and even with Camilla.
Iluvbertie, did they discuss validity of Edward's civil marriage?

This question was raised in 2005 before prince Charles' marriage.
From wikipedia:
Quote:
The royal family was specifically excluded from the Marriage Act 1836, which instituted civil marriages in England. However, Prince Charles's civil marriage raised questions. Lord Falconer of Thoroton told the House of Lords that the 1836 Act had been repealed by the Marriage Act 1949, which had different wording, and that the British Government were satisfied that it was lawful for the couple to marry by a civil ceremony in accordance with Part III of the 1949 Act, and the Registrar General Len Cook determined that a civil marriage would in fact be valid. Any doubt as to the interpretation of the Marriage Act 1949 was put to rest by the Human Rights Act 1998, which requires that legislation be interpreted in conformity with convention rights wherever possible (including the right to marry, without discrimination).
Thus it looks like Edward's marriage (took place before the Marriage Act 1949) wasn't valid in England.
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  #1228  
Old 05-17-2016, 02:20 AM
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How Edward VIII showed he wasn’t cut out to be King 17 YEARS before he took the throne | Daily Mail Online
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  #1229  
Old 05-17-2016, 02:34 AM
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Those long Empire tours undertaken in the 1920's probably were a bit of a strain. However, a collection of letters to Freda Dudley Ward that were published years ago show Edward as a man very much given to self pity and whining about his family, duties, officials he met, his travelling, position as heir, the fact he often felt 'useless' etc, etc. Quite frankly, I don't think he ever really wanted to be King and from the days of his early manhood he was looking for an 'out', IMO.
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  #1230  
Old 05-23-2016, 02:17 AM
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Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson on the cruise that triggered the abdication crisis* | Daily Mail Online
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  #1231  
Old 05-24-2016, 08:06 PM
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Although photographs of the cruise and short articles about the destinations did appear in British newspapers, sparking shock that a British King would walk around half-naked, (bare-chested) Wallis Sinpson still wasn't mentioned, except as one of the guests.

It wasn't until the Bishop of Bradford made an observation towards the end of the year about 'the King's grace' that all hell broke loose. The Bishop didn't know about Wallis and was just referring to Edward's irregular church going, but the Establishment and Press thought he was speaking about the affair. It was then that the Press broke ranks and the population knew for the first time what their monarch had been up to.

Edward may have been popular with the working class people of Britain but the middle classes weren't too keen on having a Queen Wallis, and neither were working class women. When the scandal broke, her the window glass in her house was smashed and she had to flee abroad for her own safety.

I fail to see what is underdog about an extremely privileged, spoiled and entitled man (nothing humble about David) and the mistress he absolutely smothered with expensive jewellery and assured would be Queen.
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  #1232  
Old 05-27-2016, 04:38 AM
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Please note that the most recent conversation concerning the Duchess of Windsor's style and title has been moved to the following thread:

Questions about British Styles and Titles
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  #1233  
Old 05-27-2016, 11:42 PM
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Betsy Prioleau discusses the Duchess
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  #1234  
Old 06-06-2016, 08:43 AM
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How Edward VIII revealed his delight at changing Saxe-Coburg-Gotha surname for Windsor* | Daily Mail Online
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  #1235  
Old 06-06-2016, 09:55 AM
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I'm glad he was pleased. However, all though it's hard to know to whom the writer of this article is referring in this instance, (not unusual with the Daily Fail) it's wrong to state that none of the future Edward VIII's cousins were British. What about the progeny of Louise, George V's eldest sister, who married the Duke of Fife?
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  #1236  
Old 08-07-2016, 03:15 AM
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Edward VIII jumped out of his car in the middle of the A4 to 'expostulate' with a cyclist | Daily Mail Online
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  #1237  
Old 08-07-2016, 03:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Those long Empire tours undertaken in the 1920's probably were a bit of a strain. However, a collection of letters to Freda Dudley Ward that were published years ago show Edward as a man very much given to self pity and whining about his family, duties, officials he met, his travelling, position as heir, the fact he often felt 'useless' etc, etc. Quite frankly, I don't think he ever really wanted to be King and from the days of his early manhood he was looking for an 'out', IMO.
I wouldn't say that. I think that he did do the job pretty well as POW, worked hard and did a fairly good job in public. If he complained in private, well we all do about our jobs. but I don't think he seriously contemplated leaving the RF. I think it was a combination of actually becoming King and realising that he was now "king for life", ha the whole role laid out for him etc. which happened around the same time he'd fallen in love with Mrs S. and been advised that she wasn't a sutiable bride, for him.. that pushed him to want to leav...
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  #1238  
Old 08-07-2016, 04:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
It was also a matter of social custom. If the King (and the Queen) made it known throughout Society that Wallis was not to be addressed as an HRH then who would have disobeyed? Certainly many of those people who were invited to Government House in the Bahamas years didn't, even if it did put them in a very awkward position sometimes.

I
After everything that had happened the thought that 'that woman' was going to be curtsied to and fawned on as a royal person would have been sheer anathema to most Britons at the time and therefore they would have backed whatever it took to bring her down.
I agree. I think that certainly the force of social custom and what the King said was likely to be obeyed... and IF Wallis' 3rd marriage had not lasted, like the first 2, if she had had an HRH that could not be taken from her, or had at least been hers, I can see that the RF and people feared she would go on calling herself HRH, and gone through café society with maybe a 4th Husband Count Somebody and calling herself HRH Countess Somebody and exacting curtsies etc from people.. At the time, it would have seemed pretty awful and degrading the titles of the UK...
I tink that yes George VI got so fed up with His brother that he would have done what he felt was needed to make sure that didn't happen, even if it meant legislation to strip David of HIS HRH
Sorry if this is a bit OT, I hadn't seen the post about the titles? If it should go elsewhere please move it?
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  #1239  
Old 08-07-2016, 04:21 AM
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As usual accuracy is non-existent at the Daily Hate Mail...
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  #1240  
Old 08-07-2016, 07:39 AM
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You The late King/Duke of Windsor had his faults and short comings, Lord knows. I just wonder if anyone will ever be fair and realize part of the reason why he threw away his throne and duty to the empire is because of the treatment he recieved from those same people.

The Crises of 1936 isn't just Edward and Wallis's fault, just saying.
yes it was. He was not ill treated, nor was she.
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