Duke and Duchess of Windsor (1894-1972) and (1895-1986)

[Furienna]

If I remember correctly, Wallis's second marriage was never based on love between her and her husband. So it could be that Ernest did not care much about what she did. Or he couldn't do much about it, when she caught the attention of the Prince of Wales himself.

It is true also that royal mistresses back in the day often were married. Edward VIII (before he met Wallis) and his grandfather Edward VII (who was of course married himself from a young age) had plenty of affairs with married ladies. And even a better man like the future George VI had a fling with a married woman before he met Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon. That would be an unfortunate effect of what upper class marriages often were about for centuries: Striking a nice deal between two families rather than finding someone you could love. And it was also even more scandalous to get a divorce than to have a lover on the side.

 

[MARG]

. . . I am at the part where they are going through their divorce and it is talking about how the situation between Wallis and David got out of control. It said that she had told Ernest at the beginning of the affair with David that the fling was okay because it would not last forever. My first thought was how could Ernest have possibly been okay with his wife having an affair?!? This book does talk about him being a staunch Monarchist so could he have been a little flattered that the King found his wife desirable? I have read before that there were men who did not "mind" their wives being mistresses of a king because of the favor the husbands received at court as a result of it. Was this Ernest's attitude?

While having an affair was not the worst sin in the world, it did rather depend on the type of society you mixed with. Ernest lived and played in the same set which set him up well socially and potentially financially.

The "set" that revolved around the POW was long considered "fast" and extra-marital affairs were almost de rigueur. The King was in despair that his son and heir had not only not grown out of that lifestyle and married and settled down, but was instead a leader of an amoral raffish set.

Wallis and Ernest were both engaged in affair's and, had the King not died when he did, I believe David and Wallis's affair would have ended the same way they always did . . . no big deal. Unfortunately, David had a habit of "falling passionately in love" and was besotted by Wallis, becoming more and more indiscreet when confronted and digging his heels in.

 

[Lady Nimue]

I am currently reading that book and something interesting stood out to me last night as I was reading. I am at the part where they are going through their divorce and it is talking about how the situation between Wallis and David got out of control. It said that she had told Ernest at the beginning of the affair with David that the fling was okay because it would not last forever. My first thought was how could Ernest have possibly been okay with his wife having an affair?!? This book does talk about him being a staunch Monarchist so could he have been a little flattered that the King found his wife desirable? I have read before that there were men who did not "mind" their wives being mistresses of a king because of the favor the husbands received at court as a result of it. Was this Ernest's attitude?

I was struck when I read (or was it in a documentary) that Ernest and David met while Wallis was in Paris, and came to an agreement: Ernest agreed to divorce Wallis (by that time he had another woman he cared for and cared for him). When Wallis returned from Paris and was told of this agreement she was devastated. Can you imagine having your husband negotiate away your freedom? That image is haunting: she never intended that the affair with David would be permanent, and here she was presented with her sealed doom.

It's sobering to realize that in so many ways, because of the times she lived in, Wallis had no other recourse but to stay with David. He literally cornered her, like any stalker. It has it's chilling aspect, and through it all, for her trouble, she was pilloried by the public.

I give her credit for having made the best of a very unexpected deal. But it remains hard to look at her face on her wedding day. She looks shell-shocked to me.

 

[Lady Nimue]

 

[Denville]

If I It is true also that royal mistresses back in the day often were married. Edward VIII (before he met Wallis) and his grandfather Edward VII (who was of course married himself from a young age) had plenty of affairs with married ladies. And even a better man like the future George VI had a fling with a married woman before he met Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon. That would be an unfortunate effect of what upper class marriages often were about for centuries: Striking a nice deal between two families rather than finding someone you could love. And it was also even more scandalous to get a divorce than to have a lover on the side.

Royal upper class mistresses were always married. To seduce a single woman of the upper class was scandalous

 

[Countessmeout]

Indeed. Though in centuries past some may have been single and married off to a loyal courtier looking for a higher title or pay cheque.

The affairs were usually common knowledge. The husbands tended to benefit financially and socially from allowing it. Alice Keppel's husband seemed to be quite okay with her many affairs including Edward VII, commenting as long as she came home to him she was fine.

It was less scandalous to date a married woman. Especially if the couples ran in their circle. They could hide the rendezvous easy enough. And if she ended up pregnant, there was no proof who the father was. Made things easier.

 

[Curryong]

As Mrs Keppel in an earlier generation made full use of!

 

[Tsaritsa]

I was struck when I read (or was it in a documentary) that Ernest and David met while Wallis was in Paris, and came to an agreement: Ernest agreed to divorce Wallis (by that time he had another woman he cared for and cared for him). When Wallis returned from Paris and was told of this agreement she was devastated. Can you imagine having your husband negotiate away your freedom? That image is haunting: she never intended that the affair with David would be permanent, and here she was presented with her sealed doom.

It's sobering to realize that in so many ways, because of the times she lived in, Wallis had no other recourse but to stay with David. He literally cornered her, like any stalker. It has it's chilling aspect, and through it all, for her trouble, she was pilloried by the public.

I give her credit for having made the best of a very unexpected deal. But it remains hard to look at her face on her wedding day. She looks shell-shocked to me.

I couldn't agree more. Whilst I think there had to have been some enormous satisfaction in being able to cock a snoot at her friend Thelma by becoming David's number one, and to be able to flaunt the jewellery he covered her in, I think it slowly must have dawned on her that there's no such thing as a free lunch. The title may -to her- have said "POWER" but she wasn't to know until it was too late, that the character who held the title was anything BUT powerful -more a man-child in reality- and she was going to have to take responsibility for keeping him happy and amused for the rest of their lives.
I truly don't believe she wanted to marry him. As for being Queen? I honestly don't believe she ever thought it would get to marriage. When she realized that he was serious I think she did try very hard to extricate herself by which time she'd been backed, so tightly into a corner, that there was no way out.
I don't believe David had ever wanted the throne and although she probably didn't know it -she may have guessed it later- I think he may have seen Wallis as a convenient way out and by making her feel responsible -ie suicide threats, abdication, "I've done all this for you"- like the spoiled, petulant child he was, he got his own way.

 

[rominet09]

I couldn't agree more. Whilst I think there had to have been some enormous satisfaction in being able to cock a snoot at her friend Thelma by becoming David's number one, and to be able to flaunt the jewellery he covered her in, I think it slowly must have dawned on her that there's no such thing as a free lunch. The title may -to her- have said "POWER" but she wasn't to know until it was too late, that the character who held the title was anything BUT powerful -more a man-child in reality- and she was going to have to take responsibility for keeping him happy and amused for the rest of their lives.
I truly don't believe she wanted to marry him. As for being Queen? I honestly don't believe she ever thought it would get to marriage. When she realized that he was serious I think she did try very hard to extricate herself by which time she'd been backed, so tightly into a corner, that there was no way out.
I don't believe David had ever wanted the throne and although she probably didn't know it -she may have guessed it later- I think he may have seen Wallis as a convenient way out and by making her feel responsible -ie suicide threats, abdication, "I've done all this for you"- like the spoiled, petulant child he was, he got his own way.

What you say looks so right to me... besides jewels may be nice to receive but they won't change your feelings if you are unhappy.

 

[Nice Nofret]

I am currently reading that book and something interesting stood out to me last night as I was reading. I am at the part where they are going through their divorce and it is talking about how the situation between Wallis and David got out of control. It said that she had told Ernest at the beginning of the affair with David that the fling was okay because it would not last forever. My first thought was how could Ernest have possibly been okay with his wife having an affair?!? This book does talk about him being a staunch Monarchist so could he have been a little flattered that the King found his wife desirable? I have read before that there were men who did not "mind" their wives being mistresses of a king because of the favor the husbands received at court as a result of it. Was this Ernest's attitude?

Not everybody is marrying for love - also in the US it is known that people marry for other reasons than that... even if the 'ideal' might be a lovematch.

So when you see your marriage more in the light of an businessarrangment for having kids toghether, for futhering your family, position, money etc. sexual diversity in the marriage might be a possiblility. Because the marriage isn't about sex - its about other things.

 

[Furienna]

I was struck when I read (or was it in a documentary) that Ernest and David met while Wallis was in Paris, and came to an agreement: Ernest agreed to divorce Wallis (by that time he had another woman he cared for and cared for him). When Wallis returned from Paris and was told of this agreement she was devastated. Can you imagine having your husband negotiate away your freedom? That image is haunting: she never intended that the affair with David would be permanent, and here she was presented with her sealed doom.

It's sobering to realize that in so many ways, because of the times she lived in, Wallis had no other recourse but to stay with David. He literally cornered her, like any stalker. It has it's chilling aspect, and through it all, for her trouble, she was pilloried by the public.

I give her credit for having made the best of a very unexpected deal. But it remains hard to look at her face on her wedding day. She looks shell-shocked to me.

That sounds terrible if it's true.

 

[Furienna]

Royal upper class mistresses were always married. To seduce a single woman of the upper class was scandalous

Hm yes, I read about that somewhere before. It sounds weird though to me that seducing a married woman was better than seducing a single one. But my guess is that a single woman was supposed to find a husband, and not be content with being a mistress.

 

[Furienna]

I couldn't agree more. Whilst I think there had to have been some enormous satisfaction in being able to cock a snoot at her friend Thelma by becoming David's number one, and to be able to flaunt the jewellery he covered her in, I think it slowly must have dawned on her that there's no such thing as a free lunch. The title may -to her- have said "POWER" but she wasn't to know until it was too late, that the character who held the title was anything BUT powerful -more a man-child in reality- and she was going to have to take responsibility for keeping him happy and amused for the rest of their lives.
I truly don't believe she wanted to marry him. As for being Queen? I honestly don't believe she ever thought it would get to marriage. When she realized that he was serious I think she did try very hard to extricate herself by which time she'd been backed, so tightly into a corner, that there was no way out.
I don't believe David had ever wanted the throne and although she probably didn't know it -she may have guessed it later- I think he may have seen Wallis as a convenient way out and by making her feel responsible -ie suicide threats, abdication, "I've done all this for you"- like the spoiled, petulant child he was, he got his own way.

I believe that many of David's faults can be blamed on his relationship to his father. George V put a lot of pressure on both his elder sons, which didn't turn out well for either of them. David seems to have suffered from depressions, and I just read that he also might have had eating disorders. Bertie developed a stammer, that he could never fully get rid of. Bertie still became the favorite though, because he was able to settle down with a suitable wife and have two cute girls. But there was no way for David to please their domineering father, so all in all, I don't blame him for coming to a point, where he was making suicide threats and acting like a spoiled petulant child. He was going through mental problems, and he could not even get proper help for them.

 

[Tsaritsa]

What you say looks so right to me... besides jewels may be nice to receive but they won't change your feelings if you are unhappy.

Any more than will a course of ECT mend a failing marriage

 

[Denville]

Hmis that a single woman was supposed to find a husband, and not be content with being a mistress.

Obviously. To seduce a well born single girl was to take away her main asset for finding a husband, her virginity. and a married woman was safe, had a husband to give her protection, to father any children she might have and to avoid scandal.

 

[Denville]

I believe that many of David's faults can be blamed on his relationship to his blame him for coming to a point, where he was making suicide threats and acting like a spoiled petulant child. He was going through mental problems, and he could not even get proper help for them.

Mental problems? Dogged selfishness I think you mean.

 

[Denville]

What you say looks so right to me... besides jewels may be nice to receive but they won't change your feelings if you are unhappy.

I don't think she was unhappy. She didn't expect the affair to end in marriage or probalbly for it to go on that long. In the meantime she was admired and feted in society, she got jewels, and she beleived that she would in due course go back to her husband and Edward would become king.
when she realised that he was determined to marry her, I think she panicked, she was comfortable with Ernest, and perhaps didn't realise that he had grown fed up with being the "husband of the Princes' mistress" and had a new woman he wanted to be with.
And now she was in a horrible bind.. with a fear that Edward would never be able to marry her and make her queen.. and she didn't know what would happen if he insisted on marrying her but giving up the throne..
but I think In the end, she made the best of it. She was married to a man who adored her.. who was rich and prominent - even if they had to live abroad and he was fretful at not being King any more. She was a queen in café society, she had wealth and comfort and a husband who while he was bored in many ways, was still devoted to hr. I think she found the adoration cloying at times, and had that werid romance with Donahue.. but she wasn't unhappy as such, just bored.

 

[duchessrachel]

Has anyone read "Battle Royal" by Kirsty McLeod? It is a book about the feud between King George VI and the Duke of Windsor? I found it on Amazon, but it is EXPENSIVE and it is out of stock on thriftbooks.com. I am just wondering about the reliability of it? Thanks.

 

[Lady Nimue]

I agree, Tsarita. A good summary.

I couldn't agree more. Whilst I think there had to have been some enormous satisfaction in being able to cock a snoot at her friend Thelma by becoming David's number one, and to be able to flaunt the jewellery he covered her in, I think it slowly must have dawned on her that there's no such thing as a free lunch. The title may - to her - have said "POWER" but she wasn't to know until it was too late, that the character who held the title was anything BUT powerful - more a man-child in reality - and she was going to have to take responsibility for keeping him happy and amused for the rest of their lives.

Exactly. An affair was one thing. Looking down the barrel of a long dark tunnel, quite another.

I truly don't believe she wanted to marry him. As for being Queen? I honestly don't believe she ever thought it would get to marriage. When she realized that he was serious I think she did try very hard to extricate herself by which time she'd been backed, so tightly into a corner, that there was no way out.

Exactly, and she was being pegged as wanting all that, too.

I don't believe David had ever wanted the throne and although she probably didn't know it - she may have guessed it later- I think he may have seen Wallis as a convenient way out and by making her feel responsible - ie suicide threats, abdication, "I've done all this for you"- like the spoiled, petulant child he was, he got his own way.

Too true. It's actually a very difficult story to read about when you understand the entrapment that was occurring. Poor kid! Anyone who talks about them speaks well of Wallis. She was the interesting one, the engaging one. Not him. Her ending was so sad, too. All in all, a hard story. Not a romance at all.

 

[Furienna]

Mental problems? Dogged selfishness I think you mean.

Where you can see nothing but dogged selfishness, I see a deeply unhappy man trying to cope with his depressions, while he also has high expectations to live up to and duties to perform.

 

[Osipi]

In a way, being selfish and also seeing David's deep depression over how his life was run hand in hand. So many times and in so many words in letters he's written to Freda Dudley Ward and to others bemoan the fact that his life just wasn't the way he perceived it should be in order to be happy. His role as Prince of Wales, in his eyes, prevented him from doing things that he felt he really wanted to do such as go to the front lines in WWI. His life, to me, seemed from the early years before the abdication, one of where there was always something standing in the way of what he felt would make him happy.

With this in mind, he also was selfish to the point of being overly possessive of those intimate relationships to the point that they became his have all and be all of what he needed to be happy. We saw that with Freda and later on with his possessiveness of his relationship with Wallis.

There was always something in David's life that was missing that he perceived he needed to be happy. He abdicated his position as King to marry Wallis and even once he had that, there were other things to bemoan such as lack of money and lack of status and prestige. No matter where David was in life, there was always the element of "the grass is greener" somewhere else and more to want and more to bemoan about because he didn't have it.

 

[Denville]

Where you can see nothing but dogged selfishness, I see a deeply unhappy man trying to cope with his depressions, while he also has high expectations to live up to and duties to perform.

So what was his excuse when he had given up being king and did very little but sit at home waiting for Wallis to come in, or going trhough an aimless social life with her?

 

[Furienna]

Osipi wrote a very good post explaining that he never seemed to be fully happy, even when you might very well think that he should have been. Which yet again sounds to me like he had his mental problems, which he could never resolve.

 

[Denville]

What was to stop him getting help?

 

[Furienna]

While I can't definately answer the question why David didn't get help, I have my theories.

Firstly, there was a huge stigma against mental illness a long way into the 20th century. So that alone can have made him decide to not do it. Secondly, psychiatry still had a long way to go during his lifetime. He might have been scared to put himself at the mercy of a half-primitive mental care. Thirdly, even if you get help for depressions and such mental issues today, you might fall back into the funk later, especially if something new negative happens in your life.

 

[rominet09]

Chronic depression is a serious illness and even now sometimes there is not a lot you can do.... take a lot of pills... talk to someone.... but these sometimes don't even always work.... if it was his problem of course

 

[Osipi]

We have to remember too that David's lifetime was back in the era where doctors told women to take up smoking to relax their nerves.

Knowledge of psychiatry and mental illnesses wasn't something that was very widespread yet or accepted. I would imagine that even if David or those close to him recognized that he may have any kind of a mental problem, it most certainly wasn't something one ran to the doctor about. Even David's youngest brother, John, with severe epilepsy didn't receive much in the way of medical treatment (as far as I understand from what I've read. It was commonly called a "malady").

All this pretty much stopped him from getting help as, at that time, there really wasn't much help to be gotten from a psychiatric point of view. If such mental problems became public in any way, the family would have felt it to be a huge stigma on them.

 

[ladongas]

Battle Royal

Has anyone read "Battle Royal" by Kirsty McLeod? It is a book about the feud between King George VI and the Duke of Windsor? I found it on Amazon, but it is EXPENSIVE and it is out of stock on thriftbooks.com. I am just wondering about the reliability of it? Thanks.

I don’t know this book, but I can recommend abebooks.com as an excellent source. They have several copies, at prices beginning at $1.18! I’ve often ordered out of print volumes from abebooks.

 

[Queen Claude]

So what was his excuse when he had given up being king and did very little but sit at home waiting for Wallis to come in, or going trhough an aimless social life with her?

The Duke of Windsor wanted to work but he was sidelined by the BRF (for mostly understandable reasons). He did work in France during World War II but then France got invaded by the Nazis and he needed to be re-assigned but by then he shown himself to be indiscreet with sensitive information, he was chummy with Nazi sympathizers, if not the Nazis themselves, and he was a pain in the butt over what was seen as trivial matters during wartime like lobbying for Wallis to have HRH styling, so he ended up being assigned Governor General of the Bahamas until the end of the war.

Also David was over fifty by the time World War II ended and he really was not qualified to be anything other than a working royal or a country squire which probably applies to most royals. Some royal men had military careers but the ones who that applies to started active service when they were young men.

 

[Denville]

While I can't definately answer the question why David didn't get help, I have my theories.

Firstly, there was a huge stigma against mental illness a long way into the 20th century. So that alone can have made him decide to not do it. Secondly, psychiatry still had a long way to go during his lifetime. He might have been scared to put himself at the mercy of a half-primitive mental care. Thirdly, even if you get help for depressions and such mental issues today, you might fall back into the funk later, especially if something new negative happens in your life.

or there was noting wrong with him but he was spoiled, and selfish.

The Duke of Windsor wanted to work but he was sidelined by the BRF (for mostly understandable reasons). He did work in France during World War II but then France got invaded by the Nazis and he needed to be re-assigned but by then he shown himself to be indiscreet with sensitive information, he was chummy with Nazi sympathizers, if not the Nazis themselves, and he was a pain in the butt over what was seen as trivial matters during wartime like lobbying for Wallis to have HRH styling, so he ended up being assigned Governor General of the Bahamas until the end of the war.

young men.

He didn't want to "wrok", he wanted to be royal agan but only to do as much "princely" or charity duties as suited him. He behaved abominably during the war, any one else would probably have been court martialled. he refused to come home at a critical part of the early war because he was arguing about Wallis having an HRH. he then left for England and as I recall Left his aide, who was an old friend, to make his own way back.
He was then sent to the Bahamas where he and Wallis bitched about the place and called it Elba.. and made a hash of things there. After the war, he was settled in France, nothing to stop him setting up some kind of charity there, or taking up some energetic hobby.. Instead he and W pursued a social life. He was bored and miserable except for being with her...