Duke and Duchess of Windsor (1894-1972) and (1895-1986)

[Zonk]

I need to reread that bit...I thought Edward told Wallis that he would follow her to the end of the earth (which also a needy comment to make) but I don't recall him saying that he would hurt himself. Though it wouldn't surprise me I guess.

Shame about Border's isn't...now I will have to subscribe to Majesty magazine!

 

[CarolinaLandgrave]

I need to reread that bit...I thought Edward told Wallis that he would follow her to the end of the earth (which also a needy comment to make) but I don't recall him saying that he would hurt himself. Though it wouldn't surprise me I guess.

She had such a bizarre hold on David....

 

[Tsaritsa]

I think, whilst she reminded him of his mother at some level she was his idealised version of the mother he wanted and needed. How much more powerful can one woman be?

 

[CarolinaLandgrave]

I agree with you on the part about needing/wanting/identifying with a motherly figure, Tsaritsa. I am a huge fan of Queen Mary, but maternal she was not.

 

[NoorMeansLight]

Very strange... I thought her power on him had to do with the fact that she was the only woman he had met who could cover his sexual preferences. Which appears to be absolutely reasonable. And besides the Duchess of Peril was clearly NOT a motherly figure. Where did you read that, Tsaritsa?? Or is it just a thought of yours?!

 

[CarolinaLandgrave]

I think it's both......and I agree, NML..... which makes it all the more strange - somehow the Duke rolled mother & lover into one odd woman... in my ever so humble opinion.

 

[NoorMeansLight]

Oedipus complex perhaps??!

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

There are some who believe that the Duke of Windsor suffered from sexual immaturity, perhaps as a result of illness before hitting puberty. These people based their opinion on his boyish appearance through middle age, the lack or apparent lack of body hair, etc. So, while many speculated that Wallis was experienced in sexual ardor and practices (from her time spent in the Far East), it appears to me the Duke was more interested in her as a maternal figure who would take control of his life.

Then again, maybe she rocked his sexual world! But I think their attraction bordered more on a psychological dependence as opposed to a physical dependence.

 

[Tsaritsa]

NML and CL, hello to you both. You are both right!! Oedipus complex and mother/lover in one "strange" woman. Your observations on QM are quite correct, there was little of the architypal mother in her, nonetheless her first born may well have felt that he stood a better chance of pleasing her if his father was out of the way. Mary was one of lifes withholders - Freud would have called her anally retentive. Wallis too slots easily into this catagory. It was her lack of anything remotely like maternal feeling that reminded him of his mother thus making a "grownup" relationship possible.......but here we find a questionmark. Wallis affirmed to Baba Metcalfe, wife of Fruity, on her wedding morning that she had not had sexual intercourse with either of her previous husbands. If this was true we must wonder why. Perhaps to give lie to the speculation about her sexual history or to render herself "pure" Either way, it is an unexpected, not to mention odd assertation from a twice married woman. As to David, Ziegler, who is my main reference has him as being "underdeveloped", whilst Thelma Furness has him as sexually undeveloped and has Wallis as "releasing him from his inhibitions". However, long before Wallis a female companion claims to have had with him "a night in paradise!! Well now, who of us would have said he was no good!!! Handsome POWs are always wonderful lovers, aren' t they? We could speculate at length on their physical relationship, but when I think of the pathetic soul I experience him as being I feel glad that whatever it was he craved she was willing to provide.

 

[Tsaritsa]

VM, in an earlier post I have spoken of complications resulting from a prepubescent bout of mumps. If this complication took the form of orchitis, at that stage of male development, there could well have been problems later on.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Tsaritsa,

I think that is what some people believed happened to the Duke and could explain his later behavior. He may have been looking for maternal figures and not sexual liaisons or sexual fulfillment. And don't discount that Wallis was the first person who was not impressed with the Duke's royal status. That could have made her intriguing to him.

 

[Osipi]

NML and CL, hello to you both. You are both right!! Oedipus complex and mother/lover in one "strange" woman...

After reading this, I happened to recall a theory that I can't remember where I read it at. It was probably in this forum quite a ways back. There was a theory that perhaps Wallis suffered from Androgen Insenstivity Syndrome (AIS). If this perhaps is true, then that would explain having two previous husbands but not engaging in sexual intercourse. I did find a bit of information as a source. This is interesting in the respect that if she did suffer from AIS and David as underdeveloped, what a couple they made eh?

_The Duchess of Windsor_, by Michael Bloch, Weidenfeld & Nicolson 1996

Sufferers from this condition, which Bloch tells us is called Androgen insenstivity syndrome (AIS), cannot generally have sexual intercourse, and are certainly incapable of bearing children. The evidence for this seemed chiefly to be based on a remark which a late doctor, John Randell, made to Bloch, when he started his research into the Windsors. (This is Bloch's 6th book about them) Randell had never examined the duchess, but he knew a man who had, and assured Bloch "there's no doubt about it".

Celebrities/wallis simpson gender

 

[Tsaritsa]

Osipi, I believe AIS has been ruled out for Wallis because of her androgynous shape. It seem that AIS sufferers are more full figured. however I have read somewhere-possibly Bloch-that there was a delay in registering her birth because they were unsure of her gender which makes one wonder if she was what we now refer to as intersex. Of course, it is not conclusive proof but on the occasions she is seen without gloves her hands appear remarkably ugly and very large for such a small woman,though it could just be the way the picture was taken. As you say, an odd couple.

 

[Tsaritsa]

You have a point VM and I guess that his mother wasn't impressed with his royal status either, not in his formative years anyway.

 

[Russophile]

Ah! Ziegler! Thanks VM! (He also wrote about the divine Diana Manners, did you read that one?)
I do beg to differ on the "sexual prowess" that Wallis supposedly had from visiting the Far East. I have read nothing but conjecture on that subject. I believe somebody had to make something up, not unlike Cleopatra and her relationships with Marc Antony and Ceaser. They were military alliegences and since Rome could not understand that, they had to make up stories of her uncomparable beauty and sexual prowess. Cleo was rather ugly though very inelligent and spoke about 7 languages.
Wallis was a Southern Belle, and she took care of David. Her entertaining was legendary and she drove the butcher to distraction by requesting each piece of meat was exactly the same as the other (The Heart has it's reasons--Walli's autobio.).
As for the mumps episode, there was rumor that it rendered David sterile. Wallis made a famous quip once at a party when asked about having children, she said David "Wasn't heir-conditioned."

 

[Mermaid1962]

I'll have to pick up the Shawcross book at some point, definitely. Thank you for your reply, VM. I read Ziegler's book quite a while ago, and so no doubt some of the material has escaped me.

Shawcross credits the story to Philip Ziegler who wrote King Edward VIII and I also have a copy of that. Ziegler kind of slips this story in at the end of a paragraph on p. 287.

 

[Mermaid1962]

Thank you for the suggestions, Russophile. People have described The Duchess of Windsor as being "mannish." In an interview I saw on YouTube, she strikes me as being a straight-talker but not necessarily masculine. Do you know whether she moved in a masculine way?

Try Hugo Vickers The Private world of the Duke and Duchess of Windsor and Greg Kings The Duchess of Windsor: The uncommon life of Wallis Simpson.

 

[EmpressRouge]

Ah! Ziegler! Thanks VM! (He also wrote about the divine Diana Manners, did you read that one?)
I do beg to differ on the "sexual prowess" that Wallis supposedly had from visiting the Far East. I have read nothing but conjecture on that subject.

Yes, I've heard this many times, but it's never been more than a frequently circulated rumor. It was convenient because Wallis was not a traditional beauty so people believed she must have acquired some sort of "talent" and the fact she had spend time in China made it easy to reinforce East Asian stereotypes. Besides Cleopatra, I think Anne Boleyn also fall into this category. She wasn't a conventional beauty either and after falling out of favor with Henry VIII, people determined that she must have "bewitched" the king.

 

[Tsaritsa]

Russophile, you are right to use the word "conjecture" and it is something for which I believe we Brits are responsible. A growing number of highrankers were beginning to see David as a loose cannon, they couldn't be certain what he might do next, his intellectual immaturity giving him the attention span of a child, added to which there was another war looming. Scary, eh? So when the establishment learns that his companion already had two strikes against her-American and divorced-the situtation lent itself to manipulation. That she may have been the only woman to cope with David was irrelevent. For the most part, I think what was said of her is pure fabrication. Oriental sexual techniques? Bringing someone to sexual fulfilment without phsyical contact I'm prepared to go with on the grounds that I believe she found the act itself distasteful. A spy? I think not. This woman's first interest was herself, why would she be interested in the political machinations going on in another country, look at her war effort, she hardly gave herself up to it, did she? Mistress to a used car salesman!!!! Please! In his dreams, maybe. The woman had high standards.A "bit of rough would NEVER have been on her agenda. I think she craved financial status above all. Her childhood had been one of gentile poverty occasionally eased by wealthy Uncle Sol who I believe to have been a dark shadow in her life. If she learned nothing worse from him she would certainly have been made aware that money gave power as well as security. We know very little about the other men in her life but my feeling is that she didn't seek the company of "manly" men, I think she would have experienced them as being too overtly sexual and threatening. Given her refined and exquisite tastes she was probably drawn to asexual or even homosexual types. Noel Coward says of David, in his diaries that "he hates me because I'm queer and he knows that I know that he's queer" Could any of us say catagorically that he was wrong?
I believe the establishment of the day did a deliberate character assassination on her in order that the nation would hold her responsible for what they had long wanted-the removal of David fron the throne.

 

[NoorMeansLight]

^^ Interesting theory, Tsaritsa! Thanks for contributing! Osipi, the AIS issue is all over the net, you can type some basic words and you get many results. Like 'Wallis+Simpson+AIS' etc.

 

[Russophile]

Well after being beaten by her first husband the drunkard, is it any wonder she was taking care of herself first and foremost? I'm not saying that that was right, just that I understand where she was coming from. I don't think Wallis ever, in her wildest dreams would think the King would throw his crown over for the "woman he loved".

 

[Tsaritsa]

.....and neither do I Russophile,it probably dawned on her very slowly that his need for her was greater than hers for him. I can only guess at how that made her feel-I would have felt claustrophobic and stiffled by such dependency but the other side of the coin is the knowledge that he'd be unlikely to look elsewhere.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Russo dear, and Tsaritsa, you two (and others) have hit the nail on the head about the public demonizing Wallis in order to demean her and explain why Edward would ever give up the throne. While she was not all purity, I doubt Wallis was as evil and manipulative as many made her out to be. And Russo, my dear, you are once again correct about the treatment afforded other historical women. I went to a fascinating exhibit on Cleopatra at the Chicago Field Museum and that is exactly what the Romans and other civilizations did -- they denigrated Cleopatra's abilities and made her out to be a seductive siren who corrupted both Caesar and Antony. The truth was the opposite: she was a cultured, educated woman who was skilled at statesmanship and was a very effective leader and ruler of her people.

 

[Penny Royalty]

Very wild accounts about a life of Wallis and the heir. Interesting accounts. There is a mystery to giving up a crown for the person one loves. Maybe this story was made for a movie such as Madonna's. I will have to read more in depth about this love story. Interesting indeed. It's good that we have reminders that their life was no joke shall we say. It seems their life deserved such patronage. Nice to follow.

 

[NGalitzine]

I think they deserved each other and the UK was lucky Edward's reign was so short. Can anyone seriously imagine Wallis and David leading the British people through the perils of WWII? England expected every man to do his duty and David fell short of the mark basically deserting his post in Paris, running away to Spain and Portugal and essentially forced by Churchill to go to The Bahamas.

They may well have been devoted to each other, at least he was devoted to her, but ultimately they led a very shallow life and made no contribution to the world after the war. There were plenty of opportunities to support charities and cultural groups in Paris but they didnt get involved. It was a constant round of lunches at Maxims, dinner parties and fashion shows in Paris, NYC and Palm Beach.

The best thing that came out of their union was the sale of her jewels to benefit Institut Pasteur and AIDS research.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I think that David would have risen to the occasion during WWII but I also think that Wallis would have jumped at the chance to return to the USA for the duration, leaving the King alone in the UK during the war. He had served during WWI and I think that would have brought out the best in him but...Bertie and the Queen Mum were fantastic.

 

[CordeliaFitzgerald]

While I like David and Wallis, I do agree with the comments that neither was fit to rule England during a crisis, let alone during a stable period. Their personalities and interests just weren't suited for it. Both seemed to enjoy the philosophy of aestheticism which isn't a good fit for politics. (For all the praise she's gotten, even Jacqueline Kennedy, a follow aesthete, has been critiqued for her behavior during the White House years. And, post-White House.)

I don't begrudge them living a decadent life either. However, I do wish both could have been more self-aware of how selfish and frivolous they appeared during certain points in their lifetime. (However, I think if David weren't an ex-King, they would be less crititicized for living shallow lives. Cafe Society was a big deal back then, and David and Wallis weren't the only ones living that type of lifestyle in that era.)

 

[Russophile]

I think that David would have risen to the occasion during WWII but I also think that Wallis would have jumped at the chance to return to the USA for the duration, leaving the King alone in the UK during the war.

What makes you think that Bertie? What have you read that leads you to that conclusion?

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

But if Edward was so keen on having Wallis in his life, would he have carried on during the war while she was in the States? I think that both would have stayed put but it is merely conjecture on how well Edward would have done during the war and we will never know how things might have been. George VI was a fantastic monarch guiding his country during the war.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I do think that if he was still king during the war he would have stayed put but that he would have encouraged Wallis to be safe elsewhere - as the government wanted to do with the young princesses but the Queen Mum wouldn't leave without the king or let them go without her so they stayed. I do think that David was a totally unsuitable king during peacetime but in a war, with his military experiences during WWI, where he complained when told he couldn't serve in the trenches although he did serve for the duration as a Staff Officer (and many of them were killed - but it was somewhat safer) that he would have done the right thing at that time.