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  #121  
Old 05-17-2013, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by cepe View Post
What I find interesting, and would be interested in the views of more knowledgeable people, is that in the Dutch inauguration, each member of the government swore allegiance. That is my understanding of what happened. At the Coronation it is only Royals and Members of the peerage.


Why not members of the government? And should they?
This might help; comes from the Dutch royal website.

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During the investiture the new King is confirmed in office and swears to be faithful to the Constitution and to faithfully discharge the duties of his office. In return, the members of the two Houses swear or affirm that they will uphold the doctrine that the ministers, and not the King, are responsible for acts of government and that they will uphold the rights of the monarchy
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  #122  
Old 05-17-2013, 05:32 PM
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That's what I thought but it doesn't appear to happen at our coronation. I'm asking why not and should it?
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  #123  
Old 05-17-2013, 05:36 PM
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All members of both Houses of Parliament swear allegience to the Sovereign and his/her heirs and successors, upon taking their seats, so i think each member of the government swearing AGAIN, would be unecessary, as well as long drawn out.

The Coronation service is already very long {including as it does Holy Communion}, and i think anything that dramatically lengthens the process will be resisted by the principal participants, already subject [as they are] to hours of ceremony, in heavy robes & under blazing television lighting.
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  #124  
Old 05-17-2013, 05:53 PM
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Cepe, after the monarch dies, the parliament will be summoned and all MPs Swear alleigance to the new monarch, simply in the way they do after election..It need not happen only at the coronation. Imagine lining up all the British MPs in the Abbey,,Moreover, if MPs are left without being under oath for an year and half or so,,they will surely sell off the nation.. So this arrangement is logistically as well as technically more sensible.
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  #125  
Old 05-17-2013, 05:58 PM
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The government does so at the Accession Council the day the monarch ascends to the throne and again whenever it changes or a replacement minister is made e.g. if Cameron was to have a cabinet reshuffle all new ministers would have to swear allegiance before taking office so they do so when the new monarch attends the first council - one of the reasons for that council.

For WA his inauguration and accession were the same thing while in the UK they are two different things and happen about a year or so apart.

The Lords Spiritual and Temporal are the ones who do so at the Coronation - as much for tradition as for any other reason as they really now have little to do with the actual running of the country and aren't going to challenge the right of the new monarch.
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  #126  
Old 05-17-2013, 06:16 PM
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Thank you Iluvbertie and Vkrish. Appreciate it

It makes sense but I would have thought a ceremonial oath taking to include the government at the time of the coronation might have happened. Still it will be televised anyone so the public will know.

Thanks again
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  #127  
Old 05-17-2013, 11:13 PM
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About how much time is there between the new monarch taking over after the old monarch passes on and the formal coronation? About a year? Are the logistics of doing this that complex? I know Elizabeth's coronation was around a year later but how much could be sped up due to modern technology and how much will take that long simply because it will?
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  #128  
Old 05-17-2013, 11:34 PM
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The main reason for the delay is actually to do with official mourning. It is felt rude and inappropriate these days to celebrate a coronation of a new monarch less than a year after the passing of the old.

The reason for the nearly 18 months between the death of George VI and the Coronation of Elizabeth II was to do with the weather - who would want to have a Coronation in February when the days are short and the temperatures cold whereas in June the days are long and the temperatures quite mild.

Victoria, George V and George VI all died early in the year so their successors coronations were 18 months or so later to have the coronation in summer (Edward VII's was further delayed due to his emergency appendectomy). There was only about 13 months between the deaths of William IV and Edward VII and the coronations of their successors due to their deaths being in May and June respectively.
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  #129  
Old 05-18-2013, 08:27 PM
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No great surprise here

Next coronation to involve other faiths besides Christianity - Telegraph
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  #130  
Old 05-18-2013, 08:31 PM
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The Coronation is to convinced the subjects that they are anointed by the Lord. The anointing convincing themselves. Today, we understand it is a bunch of hooey. They had an ancestor with a powerful sword and stole much of what they have. So, it is a ceremony to, hopefully, impart, their value.
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  #131  
Old 05-18-2013, 08:41 PM
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None of this is a surprise. Other faiths have taken part in significant church services for many years.

IT is a good compromise in that we live in a multi-cultural society but we have an established church and the ceremony includes the anointing of the Head of the Church.

However, if Charles does not become king for (say) 10 years+ it might change again.
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  #132  
Old 05-18-2013, 09:08 PM
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If the CoE is disestablished there will be major changes but while there is an established church it is hard to argue for more than token involvement of other Christian denominations or faiths.
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  #133  
Old 05-18-2013, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by cepe View Post
None of this is a surprise. Other faiths have taken part in significant church services for many years.

IT is a good compromise in that we live in a multi-cultural society but we have an established church and the ceremony includes the anointing of the Head of the Church.

However, if Charles does not become king for (say) 10 years+ it might change again.
I agree.

If the coronation is to retain its previous format of being in the middle of a service of Holy Communion there is limited scope for the involvement of other faiths. While representatives of other faiths have participated in royal or national services in the last few decades none of those services have been services of communion.

Having them give readings or maybe present some of the regalia would allow them to participate without compromising the Christian nature of the ceremony or requiring the multi-faith leaders to compromise a tenet of their religion.
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  #134  
Old 05-18-2013, 10:04 PM
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I think in many way the PoW is more of a traditionalist than people think. I believe he will towards adding things to the coronation to include other beliefs, but the other previously used aspects will remain.
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  #135  
Old 05-19-2013, 12:09 AM
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The Coronation is to convinced the subjects that they are anointed by the Lord. The anointing convincing themselves. Today, we understand it is a bunch of hooey. They had an ancestor with a powerful sword and stole much of what they have. So, it is a ceremony to, hopefully, impart, their value.
Yup. The only reason most monarchs are monarchs is because their ancestors had bigger armies or greater bargaining power of some other sort, and took their competitors' lands and assets. The easiest way to get the ordinary people to accept the new monarch's right to rule was to get them to believe the new ruler had God's approval. A neat trick if you can get away with it.
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  #136  
Old 05-20-2013, 07:58 AM
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Gerald Lascelles was a female-line grandson of George V and he didnt have a title (although he was a younger son of an earl). Unless you count the written courtesy "The Honourable" as a title? Gerald Lascelles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, I agree. I strongly suspect neither Peter nor Zara Phillips (as female-line grandchildren of the Queen) without any peerage titles, will wear robes or coronets at the next coronation ceremony.

However, what about Viscount Lindley? he is a female-line grandchild of George VI and has the courtesy title of "Viscount", although not yet the substantive title of Earl of Snowdon (as his father is still alive)...

would Viscount Lindley wear coronation robes of someone with the rank of viscount (2-1/2 rows of sealskin spots on an ermine cape)? with a coronet of that of a female-line grandchild of a monarch (4 fleurs-de-lis and 4 strawberry leaves)?? ....or would he have to wait until he became the Earl of Snowdon (even if he was a female-line grandson of a past monarch)?

also, HRH Prince Michael of Kent is a male-line grandchild of HM King George V and thus has the right to an even higher-ranked coronet (4 crosses-patée and 4 strawberry leaves). However, he has not been created a peer....therefore, what coronation robes would he wear at the next ceremony? possibly a plain white ermine cape with no spots??
to partially answer my own question, it appears that Princes and Princesses of the Blood have a particular type of princely coronation robe (even if they are not a peer of the realm). For example, HRH Princess Alexandra of Kent (with no separate peerage title) wore a robe (as a Princess of the Blood) with a coronet (as a male-line grandchild of a monarch) at the last coronation

PICTURE HERE
http://www.angelfire.com/realm2/coronation/guests.html

as such, I would guess that TRH Prince and Princess Michael of Kent (as well as HRH Princess Alexandra of Kent) would wear such types of princely coronation robes with a coronet (as male-line grandchildren of a monarch with princely rank) at the next coronation...

I would imagine that if she attended the next coronation, The Dowager Countess of Harewood, 86 (grand-daughter in-law of King George V) would be entitled to a robe of a countess (and a coronet of a female-line grandchild)

I would venture to guess that Peter Phillips, Zara Phillips, Viscount Linley and Lady Sarah (as female-line grandchildren of a monarch without substantive princely or peerage rank) would not wear any coronets or robes
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  #137  
Old 05-20-2013, 10:20 AM
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also, would extended UK royal family members (who are members of foreign NON-reigning royal families) attend the next coronation and wear crowns and coronets of their respective nations? or would that be inappropriate (since their respective monarchies are defunct)

examples of persons..most of whom recently attend the wedding of Prince William and Catherine Middleton (now TRHs The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge)

The Margrave & Margravine of Baden (the Margrave is the nephew of The Duke of Edinburgh)
Princess Margarita of Baden, a niece of the Duke of Edinburgh

The Tsar & Tsaritsa of the Bulgarians

The King & Queen of the Hellenes
The Crown Prince & Princess of Greece
(godson of the Prince of Wales)
Prince Constantine-Alexios of Greece & Denmark

The Landgrave of Hesse
Princess Yvonne of Hesse


The Prince and Princess of Hohenlohe-Langenburg (The Prince is a grandnephew of the Duke of Edinburgh)
Princess Xenia of Hohenlohe-Langenburg

The King & Queen of the Romanians
Princess Margarita of Romania
(god daughter of the Duke of Edinburgh)

The Countess of Schönburg-Glauchau (The Countess is a grandniece of the Duke of Edinburgh, who is the brother of her grandmother Sophie)

The Crown Prince & Princess of Serbia (The Crown Prince is the godson of Queen Elizabeth II)
Princess Elizabeth of Serbia

Kumar Padmanabh Singh, Crown Prince of Jaipur (godson of the Prince of Wales)
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  #138  
Old 05-20-2013, 07:35 PM
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Hi,

Do Kings and Queens of other realms (even dispossessed ones) attend the coronations of their relatives?
I thought not; but could stand corrected on this question....

Also:
I know Queen Mary and The Queen Mother attended the coronations of their children;
and Maria Feodorovna went to the coronation of her son, Nicholas II of Russia, but in the past Queen Dowagers usually retired.

Does one know what the standard is in other countries? Japan or Thailand?
Do they even have coronations in those countries???

Larry
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  #139  
Old 05-20-2013, 08:31 PM
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Typically monarchs do not attend the coronations of other monarchs, the heirs are sent instead. It is usually expected for a new monarch to visit older monarchs before they visit him or her. Dowager queens tend not to attend coronations for this reason as well.
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  #140  
Old 05-21-2013, 04:02 AM
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Typically monarchs do not attend the coronations of other monarchs, the heirs are sent instead. It is usually expected for a new monarch to visit older monarchs before they visit him or her. Dowager queens tend not to attend coronations for this reason as well.
I understand that tradition holds that foreign monarchs do not attend the coronation of a monarch, BUT Commonwealth sovereigns (currently King of Lesotho, King of Swaziland, King of Malaysia, King of Tonga, Sultan of Brunei) are invited as well as Prime Ministers from 15 foreign commonwealth nations where the UK monarch is still head of state:

CARIBBEAN (& North America)
Canada
Antigua & Barbuda
Bahamas
Barbados
Belize
Grenada
Jamaica
St Kitts & nevis
St Lucia
St Vincent & G

PACIFIC
Australia
New Zealand
PNG
Solomons
Tuvalu

At the last coronation, Tonga's Queen Tupou III was a guest, and was widely cheered for her happy demeanour even while riding in an open carriage through London in the rain. Other Commonwealth sovereigns were invited to the last coronation: Sultan of Zanzibar (in current Tanzania), the Sultan of Johore (in Malaysia), the Sultan of Selangor (Malaysia), the Sultan of Kalantan (Malaysia), the Sultan of Perak (Malaysia), the Sultan of Brunei and the Sultan of Lahej (in current Yemen)

Also, foreign (non-commonwealth) sovereigns sent royal representives. For example, HM The Queen of the Netherlands sent her consort HRH the Prince Bernard of the Netherlands. HM King Baudouin I of the Belgians sent his brother, HRH the Prince of Liège, Prince Albert, etc. etc.
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