Coronation of British Monarchs

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by cepe

That would be good because they have regalia - crown and ring. I didn't know about the ring until I read your post.

Thank you

I had intended to write a post on the topic later but since you were interested in the history and ceremony of the Queens Consort's coronations, I went ahead and wrote an article. Tomorrow, I'll post articles about the Crowns of the Queens Consort.

Coronation of The Queens Consort: History and Ceremony

[Daimyo]

at the next coronation, would Peter Phillips have the right to wear a coronet of four fleurs-de-lis and four strawberry leaves (as a child of a daughter (Princess Anne) of a sovereign)? or would he need to be created a peer before he has that right?

also, if he had that right, what coronation robe would he wear (since he is not a peer)?

[Osipi]

Originally Posted by Daimyo

at the next coronation, would Peter Phillips have the right to wear a coronet of four fleurs-de-lis and four strawberry leaves (as a child of a daughter (Princess Anne) of a sovereign)? or would he need to be created a peer before he has that right?

also, if he had that right, what coronation robe would he wear (since he is not a peer)?

Although Peter Phillips does not have a title nor is he a peer of the realm, he is still in the line of succession to the throne as a male line grandchild of the monarch. I have no idea really of what robe he'd wear at a coronation but I do imagine that he would have the right to wear a coronet.

This really poses a good question and perhaps there are some more more well informed here that can answer more in depth.

[suztav]

I have a feeling that Charles and Camilla were taking notes about how to hold a more contemporary coronation when they attended the Inauguration of King Willem-Alexander in The Netherlands. I think the female members of the House of Windsor will wear long dresses/hats sans tiaras, and their family orders much like The Netherlands. Likewise I think the male members will wear morning suits or an appropriate uniform. I also think the Crown and Sceptre will sit on a table with Charles taking an Oath.

JMHO!

[cepe]

I don't claim to have indepth knowledge but I do know that Peter Philips will not wear a coronet. There are specific emblems on coronets which refer to the rank of the wearer. PP is not a member of the peerage and therefore cannot wear one.

I imagine that he would wear formal morning dress.

[Dman]

Originally Posted by suztav

I have a feeling that Charles and Camilla were taking notes about how to hold a more contemporary coronation when they attended the Inauguration of King Willem-Alexander in The Netherlands. I think the female members of the House of Windsor will wear long dresses/hats sans tiaras, and their family orders much like The Netherlands. Likewise I think the male members will wear morning suits or an appropriate uniform. I also think the Crown and Sceptre will sit on a table with Charles taking an Oath.

JMHO!

Well, British Coronations are different from the Dutch Inaugurations. Charles will most likely be crowned with the St Edward's Crown, hold the Sceptre with the Cross in his right hand and the Sceptre with the Dove in his left hand.

[Lumutqueen]

Originally Posted by suztav

I have a feeling that Charles and Camilla were taking notes about how to hold a more contemporary coronation when they attended the Inauguration of King Willem-Alexander in The Netherlands. I think the female members of the House of Windsor will wear long dresses/hats sans tiaras, and their family orders much like The Netherlands. Likewise I think the male members will wear morning suits or an appropriate uniform. I also think the Crown and Sceptre will sit on a table with Charles taking an Oath.

JMHO!

The Dutch event was an inauguration not a coronation. The two things are entirely different. Compare the 1953 coronation to the 2013 Dutch inauguration and you'll see what I mean.

[cepe]

Originally Posted by suztav

I have a feeling that Charles and Camilla were taking notes about how to hold a more contemporary coronation when they attended the Inauguration of King Willem-Alexander in The Netherlands. I think the female members of the House of Windsor will wear long dresses/hats sans tiaras, and their family orders much like The Netherlands. Likewise I think the male members will wear morning suits or an appropriate uniform. I also think the Crown and Sceptre will sit on a table with Charles taking an Oath.

JMHO!

As Lumutqueen says, this would be a coronation, not an inauguration. But it is also the enthronement of the Head of the Church of England. So it won't be like the Dutch ceremony. However, I think it will be simpler for practical reasons.

It won't be the same as the one in 1953 in terms of attendees (IMO) because of the changes to the House of Lords, ie not all hereditary peers. All the peers and their wives attended in 1953. And I also think that in these safety conscious days, putting 3 times the capacity into Westminster Abbey won't be allowed either. I should think they have it all worked out already.

[suztav]

Originally Posted by cepe

As Lumutqueen says, this would be a coronation, not an inauguration. But it is also the enthronement of the Head of the Church of England. So it won't be like the Dutch ceremony. However, I think it will be simpler for practical reasons.

It won't be the same as the one in 1953 in terms of attendees (IMO) because of the changes to the House of Lords, ie not all hereditary peers. All the peers and their wives attended in 1953. And I also think that in these safety conscious days, putting 3 times the capacity into Westminster Abbey won't be allowed either. I should think they have it all worked out already.

Agree ... it will be a streamlined, simpler ceremony. That's what I meant in my original post.

[Dman]

A few changes here and there probably buts it's not a ceremony that can be tampered with too much.

[Ish]

Originally Posted by Dman

A few changes here and there probably buts it's not a ceremony that can be tampered with too much.

I can see it being smaller in regards to those attendance but the ceremony itself won't be streamlined.

Are the Phillips the first grandchildren of a monarch to not have any title at all? Their dress might be something comparable to what the Lascelles wore to the 1953 ceremony, but without symbols of rank included.

[Daimyo]

Originally Posted by Ish

Are the Phillips the first grandchildren of a monarch to not have any title at all? Their dress might be something comparable to what the Lascelles wore to the 1953 ceremony, but without symbols of rank included.

Gerald Lascelles was a female-line grandson of George V and he didnt have a title (although he was a younger son of an earl). Unless you count the written courtesy "The Honourable" as a title? Gerald Lascelles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, I agree. I strongly suspect neither Peter nor Zara Phillips (as female-line grandchildren of the Queen) without any peerage titles, will wear robes or coronets at the next coronation ceremony.

However, what about Viscount Lindley? he is a female-line grandchild of George VI and has the courtesy title of "Viscount", although not yet the substantive title of Earl of Snowdon (as his father is still alive)...

would Viscount Lindley wear coronation robes of someone with the rank of viscount (2-1/2 rows of sealskin spots on an ermine cape)? with a coronet of that of a female-line grandchild of a monarch (4 fleurs-de-lis and 4 strawberry leaves)?? ....or would he have to wait until he became the Earl of Snowdon (even if he was a female-line grandson of a past monarch)?

also, HRH Prince Michael of Kent is a male-line grandchild of HM King George V and thus has the right to an even higher-ranked coronet (4 crosses-patée and 4 strawberry leaves). However, he has not been created a peer....therefore, what coronation robes would he wear at the next ceremony? possibly a plain white ermine cape with no spots??

[SLV]

How many of those crowns are there anyway?
You would need more than 10 crowns too dress all those familymembers.

[Daimyo]

Originally Posted by SLV

How many of those crowns are there anyway?
You would need more than 10 crowns too dress all those familymembers.

lots of people wear a crown or coronet at a coronation

ROYAL CROWN
crown with 4 crosses & 4 fleurs-de-lis with TWO arches = 1 sovereign


ROYAL CORONETS
coronet with 4 crosses & 4 fleurs-de-lis with ONE arch = 1 heir apparent (+ wife) of the sovereign

coronet with 4 crosses & 4 fleurs de lis = children (other than heir) of the sovereign (+ wives) and siblings (+wives) of the sovereign (+ current spouse of the sovereign, i.e., Duke of Edinburgh)

coronet with 2 crosses & 4 fleurs-de-lis & 2 strawberry leaves = children (+wives) of the heir apparent (i.e., the TRHs Duke & Duchess of Cambridge and HRH Prince Harry)

coronet with 4 crosses & 4 strawberry leaves = male-line grandchildren (+wives) and male-line nephews (+wives)

coronet with 4 fleurs-de-lis & 4 strawberry leaves = female-line grandchildren (+wives) of the sovereign (who have a peerage title?)


NOBLE CORONETS
coronet with 8 strawberry leaves = duke & duchess

coronet with 4 strawberry leaves & 4 low raised silver balls = marquess & marchioness

coronet with 8 strawberry leaves & 8 high raised silver balls = earl & countess

coronet with 16 small silver balls on rim = viscount & viscountess

coronet with 6 large silver balls on rim = baron & baroness


KING AT ARMS
coronet with 16 acanthus leaves

[SLV]

Where are all these crowns stored? Does the Tower have a large room were all the crowns are stored?
And what happens when there are more people than crowns of a certain kind? Do they then make extra crowns?

[vkrish]

Hey someone please answer Daimyo's question..
Will Peter Phillips and Zara wear the coronets with 4 fleurs-de-lis & 4 strawberry leaves at Charles' coronation? Is being female-line grandchild of a monarch sufficient to wear them? Or do they need to have peerage titles?
Similarly can Prince Mike of Kent wear his prescribed coronet at a male-line grandchild of the monarch?

[Dman]

Prince Michael of Kent probably but I don't think Zara & Peter will wear coronets and robes at Charles's future Coronation. I think since they aren't titled Prince & Princess of the realm is the reason. Dress/hat and morning suit for them.

[cepe]

Originally Posted by vkrish

Hey someone please answer Daimyo's question..
Will Peter Phillips and Zara wear the coronets with 4 fleurs-de-lis & 4 strawberry leaves at Charles' coronation? Is being female-line grandchild of a monarch sufficient to wear them? Or do they need to have peerage titles?
Similarly can Prince Mike of Kent wear his prescribed coronet at a male-line grandchild of the monarch?

I had answered the question about Peter Philips on 15th may post#105. Zara will not wear coronet and robes either.

Re David Linley. My understanding is that he wouldn't either as his current title is a courtesy title.

When I said ther service would be simpler, I was thinking that less people would swear allegiance. Otherwise, I don't think anything would change.

[Iluvbertie]

I don't think fewer people will swear allegiance as that was already cut to the bone in 1902 due to Edward VII's recent appendectemy.

It is now the Archbishp, the royal peers and the leading peer in each degree.

1. The Archbishop of Canterbury - (while he does it in person the other Bishops do so in their seats)
2. Royal Peers in person - William, (maybe Harry if a Duke/Earl by then), Andrew, Edward, Richard, Edward (now if say The Duke of Kent has passed his son won't do so in person as he won't e a royal peer). I am assuming that The Duke of Edinburgh either doesn't survive his wife but if he does he will also swear allegiance to his son - maybe - he may feel too old to do so.
3. The leading Duke
4. The leading Marquisate
5. The leading Earl
6. The leading Viscount
7. The leading Baron

While the leading peer does so the other peers do so in their seats.

So there are 6 plus the royal peers who do so in person - currently that would be 5 other people (Harry wouldn't at the moment as he isn't a peer but a commoner).

That would be an increase of 2 royal peers over 1953 due to there being more royal peers - in 1953 there was only Edinburgh, Gloucester and Kent to swear allegiance in person.

So to reduce the number of those swearing allegiance it would actually have to be only having William swear allegiance on behalf of the other royal peers and that would only cut out 2.

[cepe]

What I find interesting, and would be interested in the views of more knowledgeable people, is that in the Dutch inauguration, each member of the government swore allegiance. That is my understanding of what happened. At the Coronation it is only Royals and Members of the peerage.


Why not members of the government? And should they?