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  #281  
Old 01-01-2019, 11:20 PM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
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This is an experiment - and if it works it will save me having to type this information out in full but hopefully attached is a comparison table between my figures and Mr O'Donovan's figures.

Where we seem to divurge most is on overseas so I am wondering whether I can pinpoint the difference. I suspect that I count the 'welcomes' on arrival at airports when listed in the CC and there is a representative of the government there while Mr O'Donovan may not - I am guessing at this point but I will do a count of when they appear and see if that is close to the difference.

Anyway here goes with hopefully an attachment.
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File Type: pdf Comparison Table.pdf (100.2 KB, 85 views)
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  #282  
Old 01-01-2019, 11:32 PM
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It works for me bertie...thanks for doing that.


LaRae
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  #283  
Old 01-01-2019, 11:43 PM
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The difference lies in the fact that you're more cognizant of every little detail more than Mr. O'Donovan is.
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  #284  
Old 01-02-2019, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
The difference lies in the fact that you're more cognizant of every little detail more than Mr. O'Donovan is.
You also include the York girls, Lady Louise, Sir Tim, Duchess of Kent, and the Michaels - whereas Mr O'Donovan doesn't - my vote is that yours is far more comprehensive as a result. Thank you for your good work.
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  #285  
Old 01-04-2019, 03:44 AM
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I second the sentiments above from other posters - your data is best. Thank you Iluvbertie.

I had some other thoughts about the engagements. Apologies if they've been covered already here or this is the wrong thread.

Re: the lower number of engagements by William & Harry, how much of this is their decision? For example, is it possible that BP & KP have deliberately kept William's engagements lower because they don't want to elevate his profile above Charles? They must know about the surveys (including a very recent one) that show a significant % of Brits want the crown to skip Charles & go straight to William. Perhaps it wouldn't be beneficial to Charles to have William's engagement numbers equal to (or higher than) his own as this would generate even more media coverage for his heir, rather than for himself.

So although we know that William & Harry will be taking on more work as the Queen reduces hers, I wonder if BP & KP will ensure that it doesn't exceed Charles' public appearances & overshadow him. What do posters here think?
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  #286  
Old 01-04-2019, 04:25 AM
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I think a good comparison (if we were able to do so) would be to jump back to the number of engagements and events that Charles had when he was at the same stage of being a full time working royal and compare them to Harry and William's numbers now. Even with that, things are done a bit differently perhaps too than they were in the 70s.

It takes a while to build up a diary of charities and patronages that the royals take on. Meghan is just starting out and filling her diary so there could be no way she would be on par with Anne and the amount of work she does. Its something that builds over time.

Then again if the younger royals were all on par with the older royals, handing down the Queen's and Philip's patronages just may send them into overload or those charities and patronages would have to be dropped.

The Firm and "Team Windsor" know what they are doing.
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  #287  
Old 01-04-2019, 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
I think a good comparison (if we were able to do so) would be to jump back to the number of engagements and events that Charles had when he was at the same stage of being a full time working royal and compare them to Harry and William's numbers now.
I'm not sure it would be a good comparison because Charles was PoW, whereas William is a generation down from that. At the same stage, we only had one "King-in-waiting", whereas now we have two & I wonder if that creates a tension that affects the number of public engagements William does (or will be permitted to do).

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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
It takes a while to build up a diary of charities and patronages that the royals take on. Meghan is just starting out and filling her diary so there could be no way she would be on par with Anne and the amount of work she does. Its something that builds over time.
I'm not really thinking about them with regards to my question as neither is a monarch-to-be, whereas William is.

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The Firm and "Team Windsor" know what they are doing.
I'm sure they do but do you think there's an element of deliberately keeping William's profile below Charles?
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  #288  
Old 01-04-2019, 05:06 AM
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To be honest, no I don't. Although public acceptance is important to them, its not what motivates the work. I don't believe they actually pay attention to the numbers but rather spread the work around between the family and who fits the bill for doing a certain thing.

Popularity with the public is a flaky thing no matter how they slice the loaf of bread which is the work they do.
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  #289  
Old 01-04-2019, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Lilyflo View Post
I'm sure they do but do you think there's an element of deliberately keeping William's profile below Charles?
I think William's profile will and should be kept slightly lower than Charles' for the fact that one is the PoW and in a lot of matters, King in everything but name, and the other is one step behind.

That said, I don't see this as a matter of conflict between the father and son. I think they recognise how these things work, and appear to be comfortable with it.

> I see William continuing to increase the scope and breadth of his work (and that is not limited to public engagements) over the next few years as he prepares become the PoW himself.

> William now has limited access to government papers, and this will only increase. He also sees various government ministers from time to time.

> He is increasing the sensitivity and complexity of some of the overseas trips he undertakes. The recent trip to Israel and the Middle East was a good indicator, and would have taken a lot of preparation for.

> He is probably also getting to grips with the workings of the Duchies of Cornwall and Lancaster, and is probably spending a lot of time on these matters.

None of this is necessarily reflected in the league tables of public engagements.
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  #290  
Old 01-04-2019, 09:27 AM
hel hel is offline
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The other important consideration is funding; the money available is just not infinite and so decisions have to be made. I don't think anyone should expect Charles to cut back severely on his own activities so that his children can increase theirs.

I took a quick look at the figures going back to 2011 in terms of trends (year over year and increase/decrease over the period). I started in 2011 because that's when Kate entered the family. I used Tim O'Donovan's numbers because they were already in a convenient table form in an image on the internet.

When you look at the start and end of the period (2011 vs 2018), there has been a clear trend that only five members of the family have had a net increase in the number of engagements they do. These are the percentages (Harry is a huge outlier because he did almost nothing in 2011 due to still being active duty):

Harry +1106%
Kate +155.9%
William +144.4%
Sophie +25.13%
Edward +23.8%
DukeG -3.18%
Anne -8.8%
Andrew -11.21%
Camilla -12.4%
Charles -15.6%
DukeK -17.54%
HM -23.5%
DuchG -41.94%
Alexandra -43.22%

From 2017 to 2018, Edward had the largest percentage increase, followed by William and Andrew. I've also included the absolute +/-. The interesting thing to me about these numbers is the obvious impact of Philip's retirement and the effect it's had on Edward, Sophie and Andrew; they're picking up the lion's share of that work, I think.

Edward +59.11% (+172)
William +28.65% (+49)
Andrew +23.93% (+78)
Sophie +9.63% (+21)
DukeK +8.75% (+14)
DukeG +4.74% (+11)
Alexandra +3% (+2)
Anne -4% (-22)
HM -4.39% (-13)
Camilla -6.8% (-16)
Charles -7.14% (-39)
Harry -7.65% (-16)
Kate -17.14% (-18)
DuchG -20.35% (-23)
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  #291  
Old 01-04-2019, 11:09 AM
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Interesting analysis - thank you.
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  #292  
Old 01-04-2019, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hel View Post
The other important consideration is funding; the money available is just not infinite and so decisions have to be made. I don't think anyone should expect Charles to cut back severely on his own activities so that his children can increase theirs.
I think this is a key consideration. Just because there are other adults available for engagements does not mean there is unlimited money to fund them doing additional engagements.
And forcing people into "retirement" to fund the younger adults doing more engagements would also be wrong.
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  #293  
Old 01-04-2019, 07:07 PM
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Edward's figures for 2018 I suspect are an outlyer as he had a special fundraising project in 2018 with his Duke of Edinburgh Real Tennis Tour. He aimed to visit every real tennis court in the world in association with the Duke of Edinburgh Award which was probably about a third of his DoE engagements.

In 2011 Andrew was still Trade Ambassador and has taken quite some time to build up a replacement organisation to take over that role - Pitch@Palace and Ideas - both of which have steadily increased his workload over the past couple of years.
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  #294  
Old 01-05-2019, 11:07 AM
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Similar there were many millstone's associated with the DOE awards that continued this year. The Duke of Edinburgh Awards celebrated its 50th Anniversary in the UK last year and many of Edward (and Sophie's) were related to this milestone. The International Award also similarly had milestones this year - most of the African International awards celebrated their 30th Anniversary this year and it was Edward who spearheaded the spread of the Award into these countries.


It must be remember that Edward is currently doing the work of the Parton and the President of the Duke of Edinburgh Awards and the International Awards - I doubt he will continue this pace this year.

may i ask how long have you been comprising these lists - how long has Mr O'Donovan? Would I be able to pull this information from the 1980's till today ?
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  #295  
Old 01-05-2019, 07:19 PM
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Mr O'Donovan has been doing it since the early 1980s. His letter annually appears/ed in The Times on or close to New Year's Day. You may be able to get some of his letters if you can access The Times online archive but how far back that goes I don't know.

I have been doing it since 2012 and my records since then are available on this site but ... I have become more refined over the years and added more detail.

I spent a far part of last year laid up with a stress fracture in the knee followed by having the knee replaced and while doing nothing much I have started doing an analysis using the online CC from 1997 (hoping it is accurate). It will be retirement hobby as well, along with finishing my Ph.D which the 6 months off work also helped.
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