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  #321  
Old 01-01-2013, 08:07 PM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
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This article is using Mr O'Donovan's figures - which have become the de facto official figures in light of the fact that BP doesn't issue an official count at all.
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  #322  
Old 01-01-2013, 08:17 PM
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This may be stating the obvious but 2012 was Jubilee year and all of the BRF undertook more engagements because of it.

I don't expect the number of engagements to be as high for 2013, but no doubt, Jubilee year will be used as a stick to beat them with (so to speak) by the media
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  #323  
Old 01-01-2013, 09:27 PM
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I agree. One of the reasons why I chose to do my survey in 2012 was to see many they did in the Jubilee year so a comparison with 2013 will be interesting.

It is even interesting that given all the duties done in 2012 that Charles' number actually dropped according to Mr O'Donovan.

Of course the drop-off in duties, if it occurs, will be seen as a negative rather than accounting for the extra in 2012 due to the Jubilee and the Olympics and Paralympics. According to Mr O'Donovan's figures there were over 500 engagements done extra in 2012 to 2011 (and it is only fair to compare like with like in my opinion).
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  #324  
Old 01-01-2013, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
I realise its not a competition but the public and press seem to make a big deal out of the number of engagements the Royals carry out and 270 seems on the low side in my opinion.
If Catherine's total after 7 1/2 years is 270 , the press will form a lynch mob.
The wonderful thing with Iluvbertie's tabulations is that we here watch it all unfold week to week as we read the other subforums about what they did. I find it totally fascinating!

I'd really be willing to bet that the tabulations here are closer to the mark than what anyone else has posted because someone has taken the time and energy to compile and do this on a weekly basis for us.
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  #325  
Old 01-02-2013, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
That will depend on whether or not is makes it into the Court Circular. If it is in the CC it will be counted as an engagement but if not in the CC then it isn't an official engagement at all (and there were many of those throughout the year).
I admire your hard work on the this task Iluvbertie! I was just looking over the CC for some of Pss Anne's engagements and noticed that her recent visit to Afghanistan is only mentioned as a "return to Heathrow airport". Which I assume means nothing in the numbers game, despite visits to her official regiments. Does this mean the BRF probably do even more than reported?
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  #326  
Old 01-02-2013, 08:05 AM
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Does this mean the BRF probably do even more than reported?
Yes. But it depends on how and what you count.
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  #327  
Old 01-02-2013, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post

Yes. But it depends on how and what you count.
Yes, for example if they are flying to a state visit , they count getting on the plane after shaking hands with a few people as an engagement. Most of us would call it going to the airport.
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  #328  
Old 01-02-2013, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by scooter View Post
Yes, for example if they are flying to a state visit , they count getting on the plane after shaking hands with a few people as an engagement. Most of us would call it going to the airport.
I think Bertie has said she does not count this as an engagement, whether Mr O'Donovan does is a question for him but given his numbers are lower than Bertie's it would seem doubtful.

They did get a tick for sitting in the stands watching the Olympics like any other spectator though. Personally I wouldn't call that a working engagement, nor would I call watching a film work - I suppose it depends whether you are wearing jeans or an evening gown LOL.

I appreciate there has to be an objective standard though and I can't just pick and choose what I call working engagements and what I call entertainment which no doubts differs from what others would count. I think Bertie has the right method by counting what appears in the Court Circular minus arriving at airports - that takes value judgements out of the process.
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  #329  
Old 01-02-2013, 03:24 PM
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The difficulty with saying that watching a film or shaking someone's hand is not an engagement is that it fundamentally underestimates what's involved with that.

Let's say Prince William is attending the royal premiere of a film. That premiere will actually be in aid of one or more charities, often the benevolent fund for those who work in the arts and fall on hard times, or for veterans' charities. So, William has to be briefed before he goes on who exactly he's going to meet and understand a little on their roles and backgrounds. He has to know the exact sequence of events when he arrives. He'll be introduced to the great and the good from the British film industry, the company which owns the cinema, probably BAFTA (of which William is president), the charity's representatives, as well as many actors and film crew who all want their moment with a prince.

There's also very likely to be a drinks reception before or after the film with major donors and supporters of the arts in the UK. William may well have to give a speech about the charity or the creative industries or whatever. He has to know as much as he can about who he's meeting so that the evening is a success for all concerned.

So 'attending a film' can certainly be work, probably enjoyable work, but requiring a certain degree of preparation when it's an official royal engagement.
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  #330  
Old 01-02-2013, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by tamie00 View Post
I admire your hard work on the this task Iluvbertie! I was just looking over the CC for some of Pss Anne's engagements and noticed that her recent visit to Afghanistan is only mentioned as a "return to Heathrow airport". Which I assume means nothing in the numbers game, despite visits to her official regiments. Does this mean the BRF probably do even more than reported?

The Royal Family do a lot more than is reported officially in the CC although there is stuff that is reported as well that doesn't make the CC e.g. Eugenie's event with the children before Christmas or opening the TCT with her mother and even presenting a medal at the Paralympics - none in the CC although Anne's presentation of a medal was listed.

With trips to Afghanistan I suspect that the reason they aren't in the CC is security. As they end up in the CC the day after the event and usually the royal is still either on the ground or enroute home they keep that secret uptil they return but tend not to do an addendum to an already published CC.

In addition to the engagements that are listed is the correspondence - both official and unofficial and not just The Queen and her boxes is involved here. Many people write to a royal for help and that royal reads the letter and replies and usually passes the letter to the appropriate authority. They don't necessarily actually do anyhing other than acknowledge the letter to the sender and pass the letter on to the right place with a note attached for the right people's consideration.

There are also officially mentioned meetings with their charities along with unofficial meetings with them.

I think that the highest profile event that doesn't make the CC each year is the Braemar Gathering - never in the CC.
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  #331  
Old 01-02-2013, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by scooter View Post
Yes, for example if they are flying to a state visit , they count getting on the plane after shaking hands with a few people as an engagement. Most of us would call it going to the airport.

I certainly don't count leaving for a tour or arriving home from a tour - although they are listed in the CC.

I also don't count 'Divine Service' although I do count Thanksgiving Services or other special services but not the church service that it would be expected a good Christian to attend.
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  #332  
Old 01-02-2013, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
I realise its not a competition but the public and press seem to make a big deal out of the number of engagements the Royals carry out and 270 seems on the low side in my opinion.
If Catherine's total after 7 1/2 years is 270 , the press will form a lynch mob.
Well you and the press can look at it from a different angle. Take into consideration the age of the people. Compare the royals by birth to the Queen and the spouses to Phillip. Example for Charles: Divide the Queen's age by Charles then multiple it by the number of engagement the Queen had and you get 571. This is the number of engagement that Charles should have performed to equal the Queen in relation to her age.

So using this formula only Prince Charles comes ahead.

VS. Queen
Charles 571
Anne 589
Andrew 703
Edward 761
William 1260
Harry 1305

VS Phillip
Camilla 455
Sophie 629
Kate 986

(Phillip is more than 3 times older than Kate. She's doing a 1/3 of what Phillip is doing rather than 3 times!!!

And the press missed this point but thought to compare a 65 year old woman to a 30 year old. Well compare away because using the same formula Kate would have had to perform 598 engagements to equal Camilla.
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  #333  
Old 01-03-2013, 08:43 AM
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^^^^^^ See I use seniority and position rather than age to determine what is an acceptable number of engagements. Camilla is not a feeble and elderly woman, so IMO at least, as the wife of the heir and the second woman in the realm, she should be carrying out more engagements than junior women in the Royal Family.
As I stated in another comment, as long as the Queen employs her children and their spouses and her cousins and their spouses, I see no reason for her grandchildren to be full-time working royals.

Just to add, as Iluvbertie stated, I realise many charities and organisations don't want to be associated with Camilla, so I suppose her opportunities are limited somewhat, compared to other royals.
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  #334  
Old 01-03-2013, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by VictoriaB View Post
I think Bertie has said she does not count this as an engagement, whether Mr O'Donovan does is a question for him but given his numbers are lower than Bertie's it would seem doubtful.

They did get a tick for sitting in the stands watching the Olympics like any other spectator though. Personally I wouldn't call that a working engagement, nor would I call watching a film work - I suppose it depends whether you are wearing jeans or an evening gown LOL.

I appreciate there has to be an objective standard though and I can't just pick and choose what I call working engagements and what I call entertainment which no doubts differs from what others would count. I think Bertie has the right method by counting what appears in the Court Circular minus arriving at airports - that takes value judgements out of the process.
The court circular counts it as an engagement is my point.
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  #335  
Old 01-03-2013, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by scooter View Post
The court circular counts it as an engagement is my point.

The CC doesn't 'count' anything.

It simply records it. It is up to people to do a 'count' if they so wish to do so.

As their is usually some formality associated with the royals leaving for and arriving home from a tour there is a reason for is being recorded in the CC - just as Divine Service is recorded when they are at Sandringham and Balmoral but nowhere else.
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  #336  
Old 01-04-2013, 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
Just to add, as Iluvbertie stated, I realise many charities and organisations don't want to be associated with Camilla, so I suppose her opportunities are limited somewhat, compared to other royals.
I agree that Camilla could and should be seen a bit more. A number of around 350-400 engagements (on IluvBertie's count) a year is probably were I would expect her total to be on a "steady state" basis, so I am glad to see her number having risen to around 350 now.

That said, I do not believe there is any shortage of charitable organisations that would welcome the opportunity of being associated with Camilla. As somebody pointed out, the fact is that Camilla was nearly 60 when she entered royal life, and was just not used to a full time job. Given that she was a full time housewife, I think she has done well to steadily build up to this level of activity.
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  #337  
Old 01-04-2013, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
The CC doesn't 'count' anything.

It simply records it. It is up to people to do a 'count' if they so wish to do so.

As their is usually some formality associated with the royals leaving for and arriving home from a tour there is a reason for is being recorded in the CC - just as Divine Service is recorded when they are at Sandringham and Balmoral but nowhere else.
Excuse me, I should have said the court circular 'lists' it under engagements.
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  #338  
Old 01-04-2013, 11:34 AM
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I think Camilla is doing a pretty good job within the family and the amount of engagements that comfortable for her to do.

I really don't expect Camillia to be doing official engagements on the same level as Charles or Anne because they were handed a great deal of responsibility from The Queen & Prince Philip, The Queen Mother and Princess Margaret. It seems natural that the hardest working royals are The Queen, Philip, Charles and Anne.

I think this will continue until some of these duties pass on to the younger royals.
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  #339  
Old 01-04-2013, 02:50 PM
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Hey guys any idea if there are similar compilations of annual engagements of other royal families, especially Spanish/Danish/Dutch? Do the palaces release the figures or someone volunteers like this? Are they discussed together in any other thread (number specifically)?Where can we get those figures? Atleast a rough idea..I am sure they will not be lesser than BRF since they have very less number of working royals..
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  #340  
Old 01-04-2013, 03:03 PM
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Hey guys any idea if there are similar compilations of annual engagements of other royal families, especially Spanish/Danish/Dutch? Do the palaces release the figures or someone volunteers like this? Are they discussed together in any other thread (number specifically)?Where can we get those figures? Atleast a rough idea..I am sure they will not be lesser than BRF since they have very less number of working royals..
I would think your best bet would be to ask around under the threads covering the different monarchies here. They would know more than the folks that just follow and track the activities of the British royals.
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