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  #101  
Old 01-11-2014, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Baroness of Books View Post
Not having seen this series I don't know if this was even mentioned but actually, the Beauforts had a very weak claim to the throne since they were illegitimately descended from John of Gaunt and his mistress Katherine Swynford. They were later legitimized but barred from succeeding to the throne. The York line, even though descended from the younger son of Edward III, was a legitimate branch of the Plantagenets and had better succession rights. Henry Tudor capitalized on Richard III's unpopularity and pressed his Lancastrian claim to the throne, weak as it was. He had to marry Elizabeth of York afterward since she was the rightful Yorkist heiress and this would further solidify his hold, even though he claimed right of conquest rather than succession. He had to constantly protect his throne during his reign from Plantagenet claimants posing as the Duke of York (the younger prince in the tower) and Edward of Warwick ( Edward IV's nephew) who, if they were genuinely those people, would have had better right as king than he.

This seems to be a generally held view, but it's not entirely accurate. While Richard, 3rd Duke of York's paternal grandfather was one of Edward III's youngest sons, Edmund of Langley, 1st Duke of York, his claim to the throne came through his mother. She was the daughter of Roger Mortimer, 4th Earl of March, whose mother was the only child of Lionel of Antwerp, 1st Duke of Clarence.

Lionel was Edward III's second surviving son - after Edward, the Black Prince (father of Richard II), and before John of Gaunt, father of the Lancasters and Beauforts. John's eldest son, Henry, usurped the throne from his cousin. The Yorks essentially tried to take the throne on the grounds that since it was their ancestor who had been the heir presumptive they were entitled to the throne and not the Lancasters (who of course had a superior claim through conquest).

Henry Tudor's claim is tricky for a number of reasons. While the Beauforts were born illegitimate they were subsequently legitimized twice - the first time with no mention of their ability to inherit. The second time they were bares from being able to inherit because it was a Lancaster legitimizing them - Henry IV didn't want his half brothers to succeed over his sisters' sons.

However, by the time of Henry VI, the Lancaster line had dwindled a lot. A lot of the male line was dead and the various female lines had married into foreign royal houses. Having someone like John of Portugal as a heir presumptive wasn't exactly a desirable option in the best of circumstances, but especially so when other people are trying to take your throne. As such, according to David Starkey, Margaret Beaufort's marriage to Edmund Tudor was arranged by Henry VI with the intention that resulting sons could be heirs if necessary.
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  #102  
Old 01-12-2014, 12:50 AM
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Can anyone tell me where I can watch this in English? I have read all the books and loved them.........they are an interesting group of royals.
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  #103  
Old 01-12-2014, 02:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Mirabel View Post
Yes, Prince Edward was the Lancastrian heir, but there were certain doubts about his legitimacy even then. (Though this may have been because Margaret of Anjou was so unpopular).

Margaret Beaufort was the one with the best claim, since she had direct decent from John of Gaunt's line. John of Gaunt was older than Edmund of Langley (from whom the Yorks descended) so the Beaufort claim took precedence. She considered herself the rightful queen but knew a male would be chosen so plotted to get the throne for her son.
The Yorks were also descended from Philippa, the only child of Lionel of Antwerp, Duke of Clarence, Edward III's SECOND son who was older than either John of Gaunt or Edmund of Langely. It was this descent that made the Yorks the senior claimants. (Lionel - Philippa - Roger Mortimer - Anne Mortimer - Richard Duke of York.)
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  #104  
Old 01-15-2014, 12:12 PM
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True, but she was female, and female claimants tended to be disregarded.
(Which was why Margaret Beaufort intended to take the throne for her son and not for herself.)

(I doubt many regarded Edmund Tudor as a probable claimant, since neither of his parents were from the English Royal Line. He was half-brother to Henry VI through his mother - a French princess- but his father was a nobody really.)
Henry VII's claim was through the Beaufort line, not the Tudor.
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  #105  
Old 01-15-2014, 03:10 PM
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Female claimants were disregarded, but claims by men through female lines were not.

At the time that Richard II was usurped, his heir apparent was Edmund Mortimer, 5th Earl of March. Edmund's father was Roger Mortimer, 4th Earl of March, who was the eldest son of Philippa of Clarence, 5th Countess of Clarence, the only child of Lionel of Antwerp, 1st Duke of Clarence (who in turn was the second son of Edward III).

Edmund died without children, as did his only brother, so his claim to the throne passed on to his eldest sister's only surviving son, Richard of York, 3rd Duke of York. It is through this line that the Yorks claimed the throne and not through their paternal descent from Edward III.
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  #106  
Old 04-21-2014, 07:57 PM
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I wonder if The White Princess truly will be made. I think Henry VII and Elizabeth of York's love story is so beautiful, so I hope it does - despite the historical errors. If so, I hope they reuse the actors from The White Queen - Amanda Hale as Lady Margaret Beaufort in particular, she owned that show.

The White Queen is to make a comeback - Telegraph
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  #107  
Old 04-21-2014, 09:11 PM
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...I think Henry VII and Elizabeth of York's love story is so beautiful...
What love story?

I never heard that Elizabeth loved Henry, who was a cold fish by all accounts.
She had to marry him for dynastic purposes, but I don't believe she loved him (since I doubt anybody did!) It's hard to love a miserly curmudgeon...
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  #108  
Old 04-21-2014, 09:44 PM
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I'm going to guess that in the novel White Princess (one of the sequels to White Queen) deals with a fictionalized version of the "love story" between Henry VII and Elizabeth of York.
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  #109  
Old 04-21-2014, 09:45 PM
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I had read that they did grow to love each other later in their marriage, though it was certainly no love match at the beginning.
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  #110  
Old 04-21-2014, 09:48 PM
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Based on the books I have read on the two, I certainly believe that Henry truly loved Elizabeth and vice versa (though granted, as Baroness of Books says, later on in their arranged marriage). I can warmly recommend The Winter King by Thomas Penn as well as well as this little piece that describes it better than I ever could here at 3:48 am

I haven't read The White Princess (don't particularly fancy Philippa Gregory's books), so I can't speak for that.
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  #111  
Old 05-04-2014, 03:29 PM
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Just because you have to marry someone back then does not mean you can't grow to love them. I do not know what books you have read but most if not all historians agree that Henry and Elizabeth had a happy and loving marriage. I believe he also had a breakdown when she died.

Other political marriage that I have heard developed into love were: Henry III and Eleanor of Provence. Edward I and Eleanor of Castille, Queen Victoria and Prince Albert, George V and Queen Mary.
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  #112  
Old 05-04-2014, 04:31 PM
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I agree with the others, but I very much doubt Elizabeth loved Henry Tudor.
In fact, many recent accounts suggest there may have been some romantic feelings between Elizabeth and Richard (no, I don't just mean what was indicated by Gregory).

By all accounts Elizabeth was a faithful wife to Henry and an affectionate mother to his children. She was dutiful but I think it's stretching a point to regard that as love.
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  #113  
Old 05-15-2014, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by SElizabeth View Post
Can anyone tell me where I can watch this in English? I have read all the books and loved them.........they are an interesting group of royals.
It is available from Amazon (US, UK etc.).

Amazon.com: The White Queen: Season 1: Max Irons, Amanda Hale, James Frain, Rebecca Ferguson: Movies & TV

I recently purchased it from Amazon (UK) and watched all 10 episodes during the past week. I have to say that I thought it was wonderful. There were some historical inaccuracies according to the reviews which I read.

The beginning of each DVD is marred slightly by having to watch a few film trailers. There are 4 DVD's within the box-set.
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  #114  
Old 05-15-2014, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Archduchess Zelia View Post
I wonder if The White Princess truly will be made. I think Henry VII and Elizabeth of York's love story is so beautiful, so I hope it does - despite the historical errors. If so, I hope they reuse the actors from The White Queen - Amanda Hale as Lady Margaret Beaufort in particular, she owned that show.

The White Queen is to make a comeback - Telegraph
Yes, indeed, it would be great if the original cast returned (assuming that "The White Princess" is made). The ladies were especially great. But I will miss "Lord Warwick" and "King Richard".
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  #115  
Old 05-15-2014, 02:29 PM
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I so agree about Amanda Hale; she chewed up the scenery as the formidable Margaret Beaufort and totally dominated all the actors, IMO.
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