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  #41  
Old 07-11-2006, 11:10 AM
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It sounds like a brilliant series Jo.I think that the Diana/Camilla format has been done to death but the Braun/Goebbels/Hitler one would interest me and the Soraya Esfandiary/Farah Diba/Shah one too. I just don't think I could take another documentary about it all! There was a good documentary called "Queen Camilla" on the Biography Channel about a month ago which was basically about Camilla's life and it was interesting that we know so little about Camilla's childhood and teenage years because the media have only ever been interested in her as a middle aged woman. The Brandreth book cleared up alot of bakcground info but the documentary was fairly good watching too.
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  #42  
Old 07-11-2006, 11:23 AM
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I'd be interested to see the Eva/Magda/Adolf one but I don't think I could take another Diana/Camilla documentary!
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  #43  
Old 07-11-2006, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
I'd be interested to see the Eva/Magda/Adolf one but I don't think I could take another Diana/Camilla documentary!
LOL!

The Eva/Magda/Adolf docu is shown on 01.08.2006 at 20.15 CEST - ZDF is available via Astra satellite, but I don't know if you understand German (while in the Diana/Camilla- docu probably most people are speaking English this one will feature mostly German "Zeitzeugen" - witnesses).
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  #44  
Old 07-11-2006, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
It sounds like a brilliant series Jo.I think that the Diana/Camilla format has been done to death but the Braun/Goebbels/Hitler one would interest me and the Soraya Esfandiary/Farah Diba/Shah one too. I just don't think I could take another documentary about it all! There was a good documentary called "Queen Camilla" on the Biography Channel about a month ago which was basically about Camilla's life and it was interesting that we know so little about Camilla's childhood and teenage years because the media have only ever been interested in her as a middle aged woman. The Brandreth book cleared up alot of bakcground info but the documentary was fairly good watching too.
I saw the docus by the same team about "Hitler's women" which featured the women working or surrounding Hitler and they were really fascinating. Alas, one thinks that the Third Reich-topic is done to death but then a new docu shows up with a different view and new witnesses and again it's very interesting.

As it's the same team I think I'll give it a try - for some reasons I missed all the Camilla docus that were aired last year and so I'm bound to be surprised! Alas - already the press text tells that the main line is that Camilla and Charles had an on-going relationship and thus made it difficult for Diana to enter while I subscribe to the idea that C&C had "only" an on-going friendship based on understanding and support from her side (with him the gracious receiver ). Which is a situation Diana could have fit in quite well if she had had more of a "supporter" quality and less of a "star" quality herself.

I simply don't believe that this Prince Nice Guy who has tried for his whole life to be helpful to others was so coldhearted towards a young girl. And I understand so well how taxing it was to be married to this nice girl who simply didn't see life like he did and was not willing to give in. And I so understand this princess who was so young and so romantic and knew nothing about her husband but relied on her position and tried to find a lever within that. While Camilla (at least that's what the press text claims as reason for the whole problem) has understood Charles only too well and got her power out of catering to his secret dreams. Which is, in fact, IMHO, the only way to really make men eat out of your hands: be the woman of their dreams. It doesn't matter if you're beautiful as long as you are just what your beloved wants and if he is what you dream of. And all others and their opinions be d***ed.
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  #45  
Old 07-11-2006, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine
I saw the docus by the same team about "Hitler's women" which featured the women working or surrounding Hitler and they were really fascinating. Alas, one thinks that the Third Reich-topic is done to death but then a new docu shows up with a different view and new witnesses and again it's very interesting.

As it's the same team I think I'll give it a try - for some reasons I missed all the Camilla docus that were aired last year and so I'm bound to be surprised! Alas - already the press text tells that the main line is that Camilla and Charles had an on-going relationship and thus made it difficult for Diana to enter while I subscribe to the idea that C&C had "only" an on-going friendship based on understanding and support from her side (with him the gracious receiver ). Which is a situation Diana could have fit in quite well if she had had more of a "supporter" quality and less of a "star" quality herself.

I simply don't believe that this Prince Nice Guy who has tried for his whole life to be helpful to others was so coldhearted towards a young girl. And I understand so well how taxing it was to be married to this nice girl who simply didn't see life like he did and was not willing to give in. And I so understand this princess who was so young and so romantic and knew nothing about her husband but relied on her position and tried to find a lever within that. While Camilla (at least that's what the press text claims as reason for the whole problem) has understood Charles only too well and got her power out of catering to his secret dreams. Which is, in fact, IMHO, the only way to really make men eat out of your hands: be the woman of their dreams. It doesn't matter if you're beautiful as long as you are just what your beloved wants and if he is what you dream of. And all others and their opinions be d***ed.
Diana was young and foolish and she expected her husband to love her only. Most brides expect that. Unfortunately, here, there was a complication. The lovers were exchanging gifts before the wedding and he wore the cufflinks his mistress gave him on his honeymoon. Camilla was the smarter of the two. She just laid low and remained steafast in her devotion to him and in the end she won. Had the Princess played her cards right, she would still be HRH and Camilla would still be the mistress. So, you are correct.
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  #46  
Old 07-11-2006, 03:28 PM
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Let's not go all through this again....
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  #47  
Old 07-11-2006, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by redfox6
Diana was young and foolish and she expected her husband to love her only. Most brides expect that. Unfortunately, here, there was a complication. The lovers were exchanging gifts before the wedding and he wore the cufflinks his mistress gave him on his honeymoon. Camilla was the smarter of the two. She just laid low and remained steafast in her devotion to him and in the end she won. Had the Princess played her cards right, she would still be HRH and Camilla would still be the mistress. So, you are correct.
You're sure you were not in the editorial department of this film? For this is exactly the conclusion of it: Diana was young, innocent, beautiful and - yes, maybe..., foolish while Camilla was devilishly sly in lying low after having destroyed that marriage - with the prince as weak laughing-stick in between these two women...

Oh, they adressed all the critical points (Diana being called difficult even by her stauntest supporters or the way she not only manipulated the press but knew no boundaries when it came to her personal war against Charles) but all this was played very low-keyed while they repeated all the accusations concerning the "fact" eg that Charles took pics of Camilla on his honeymoon (did he? is there proof?) - in that film they had actors who played it. These actors were dressed like Charles, Camilla etc. and their part was cut directly behind original coverage on film, thus making most viewers believe that it happened exactly that way when in fact it is not proven!

I'm deeply disturbed by the "quality" of this docu as this is one of the few topics I feel I know a bit about the background and the personal positions of the people interviewed (Jennie Bond, Whitacker, Simmons, Jephson) as witnesses and found it not only lacking but outright manipulating! What to think of the others? I really thought that ZDF was a somehow reliable (It is public financed TV after all, like the British BBC) but this was not only rubbish but a disgrace to journalism. Which is something I will tell their boss as well!
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  #48  
Old 07-11-2006, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by redfox6
So, you are correct.
Seriously time to move on redfox6, it is beginning to sound like the needle is stuck.
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  #49  
Old 07-11-2006, 03:38 PM
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I don't understand German sadly - but I watched "Downfall" again last night and I wish I did speak German because an Eva/Magda/Adolf documentary would fill in the gaps.
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  #50  
Old 07-11-2006, 03:39 PM
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Since this discussion can go far beyond Camilla's events, I've moved the discussion about the new German documentary out of Camilla's Current Events thread.

By the way, has anyone actually seen the documentary? It may be a good idea to start discussions with that.
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  #51  
Old 07-11-2006, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ysbel
Since this discussion can go far beyond Camilla's events, I've moved the discussion about the new German documentary out of Camilla's Current Events thread.

By the way, has anyone actually seen the documentary? It may be a good idea to start discussions with that.
See up-thread - I saw it and it was not good in terms of journalism... Alas...
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  #52  
Old 07-11-2006, 04:42 PM
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Thanks for the clarification, Jo. I must say I was a little skeptical with their pairing of Jackie O and Maria Callas.

Maria Callas' affair with Ari started during his first marriage with Athina Onassis so Athina was her main rival. I don't remember Callas being involved with Onassis by the time he married Jackie.
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  #53  
Old 07-11-2006, 05:49 PM
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I have to agree with Jo - the documentary wasn't good at all. It mainly was rehashing a lot of the all too well known half-truths or unproven claims. Sadly people over here will believe it because it was shown on a reliable TV channel.
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  #54  
Old 07-11-2006, 05:57 PM
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I agree with Gladys the documentary wasn't good I didn't like it.
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  #55  
Old 07-11-2006, 06:10 PM
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Hmmm, I forgot to watch it, though I intended to turn on German tv. Must have been too busy studying (which is really weird, me studying). :p I didn't miss much, I believe... :o
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  #56  
Old 07-11-2006, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ysbel
Thanks for the clarification, Jo. I must say I was a little skeptical with their pairing of Jackie O and Maria Callas.

Maria Callas' affair with Ari started during his first marriage with Athina Onassis so Athina was her main rival. I don't remember Callas being involved with Onassis by the time he married Jackie.
You are incorrect. It almost killed Callas when he maried Jackie. She was very jealous. But as Jackie and Ari grew apart he returned to the lover who waited for him and truly loved him.
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Old 07-11-2006, 08:25 PM
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Yes. I read that about Callas too. She was jealous and demanding too. But I also read that Ari was quite inconsiderate with the woman in his life, is that right?
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Old 07-11-2006, 08:50 PM
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Yes. I read that about Callas too. She was jealous and demanding too. But I also read that Ari was quite inconsiderate with the woman in his life, is that right?
Yes and No. Depended on his mood or what he needed. He was wonderful to Callas in the beginning of their relationship, but never ventured near the word marriage. She accepted that and then, to her, out of the blue, he marries Jackie Kennedy. In between, he other affairs, including Jackie's sister, Lee Radzwill. He cared about Jackie and she did about him in the beginning, it wasn't just for money, but circumstances changed and when his beloved son was killed in an airplane crash, he really lost his will for most things. Callas loved him to the end and was there for him.
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  #59  
Old 07-12-2006, 12:57 AM
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You are incorrect. It almost killed Callas when he maried Jackie. She was very jealous. But as Jackie and Ari grew apart he returned to the lover who waited for him and truly loved him.
No, not really redfox. Maria and Ari were over before Jackie came into the picture. Mutual friends said that Ari couldn't understand why Maria needed to still sing opera to the public when he had all the money in the world to provide for her. He didn't understand that as a performer and a true artist, she needed a steady dose adulation from an appreciative audience. He thought his appreciation and love was enough. It was a bone of contention between the two and his eye started to wander.

You're right, it did kill her when he married Jackie because she never stopped loving him. She said something like "First I lost my voice, then I lost my body, then I lost my lover" This was nonsense though, she still had an incredible voice later on. My father went to see her late in her career and said she was best opera soprano he'd ever heard.

Her meetings with Ari though later were not like when they were lovers before. Ari was truly distraught at his son's death and the thought that he wouldn't have a son to leave his empire. In his later life, he became a mere shell of the man that he had once been - cantakerous and faultfinding, no one could bear to be with him much less Jackie who was going into her own life.

I think if Maria Callas had a rival, it had to be Athina Onassis who had had two children by Ari. Ari's affairs with women but especially with Maria doomed that marriage. That's where the real fighting over the same man happened. It would have been a more interesting segment to the program IMO than Jackie vs. Maria.
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  #60  
Old 07-12-2006, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ysbel
No, not really redfox. Maria and Ari were over before Jackie came into the picture. Mutual friends said that Ari couldn't understand why Maria needed to still sing opera to the public when he had all the money in the world to provide for her. He didn't understand that as a performer and a true artist, she needed a steady dose adulation from an appreciative audience. He thought his appreciation and love was enough. It was a bone of contention between the two and his eye started to wander.

You're right, it did kill her when he married Jackie because she never stopped loving him. She said something like "First I lost my voice, then I lost my body, then I lost my lover" This was nonsense though, she still had an incredible voice later on. My father went to see her late in her career and said she was best opera soprano he'd ever heard.

Her meetings with Ari though later were not like when they were lovers before. Ari was truly distraught at his son's death and the thought that he wouldn't have a son to leave his empire. In his later life, he became a mere shell of the man that he had once been - cantakerous and faultfinding, no one could bear to be with him much less Jackie who was going into her own life.

I think if Maria Callas had a rival, it had to be Athina Onassis who had had two children by Ari. Ari's affairs with women but especially with Maria doomed that marriage. That's where the real fighting over the same man happened. It would have been a more interesting segment to the program IMO than Jackie vs. Maria.
You are correct. They were considerably older when Jackie was around. You father was partially correct. She had a great dramatic talent, but her voice sometimes was not as good as others of her ilk. She had phenonmenal stage presence. No one like her since. After his son's death he devoloped Myasthina Gravis and, of course, his great grief, definitely killed him. Tina Onassis and Callas would have interesting, too.
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