Titles of the Swedish RF and Changes 2019


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Good thing that they have seriously reconsidered the HRH situation, only wish that they had made up their mind before giving all the children titles then taking it away.
 
It's going to be interesting to see what The Marshal of the Realm, Fredrik Wersäll, has to say at the press conference at 12.00.
I'm mostly surprised over the titles. As I've written several times here on the forums I didn't think The King would leave his grandsons without any hereditary titles and I couldn't even imagine a scenario where we'd have five non-royal dukedoms.
 
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I don't really understand if this means that the children will be removed from the line of succesion as well?
 
xenobia said:
I don't really understand if this means that the children will be removed from the line of succesion as well?
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To remove them from the line of succession take a change of the constitution. As long as they're members of the Church of Sweden, get a Swedish education and get the monarch's permission to marry they're still in the line of succession. Although given that Princess Madeleine said only a few weeks ago that she had no plans to move back to Sweden "just yet" the removal of her children's succession rights could be a mere formality.
Though... I might be biting my tongue after the press conference. Let's wait half an hour and see.
 
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That clears things up. Especially concerning princess Madeleine's children.
 
Just one question: When Sofia will get a third or Madeleine get a forth child, will this children get a dukedom or just be Prince/ss X?
 
Good decision considering the royal family will be bigger and bigger which is not necessary. But it's strange that they granted the style but later decide to take them back.

Regarding the title, dukedom and succession rights, I guess the grandkids will voluntarily lose them by not asking the monarch's permissions for marriage in far future.
 
I suppose this is realistic and sensible of King Carl. The children of Madeleine and Carl Philip will be distant from national life. These grandchildren will have to make their own way and find suitable jobs instead of being a part of the state. Chris O'Neill had the right idea in declining a title of nobility - yet he still benefits as a full and central member of the royal family. The king wont remove existing titles (other than HRH) but unlikely to grant prince and dukedom to subsequent children out of Victoria's line.
 
I think the eventual next grandchildren of the King, if they appear, will have titles of Duke/Duchess of (county) but without the HRH predicate.
 
The court published this photo of the King, Crown princess Victoria and princess Estelle today. Taken by Sandra Birgersdotter Ek.
https://www.kungahuset.se/images/20...Sandra_Birgersdotter_Ek_Kungl.Hovstaterna.jpg

The documents
https://www.kungahuset.se/images/20...okoll_Foto_Sara_Friberg_Kungl.Hovstaterna.jpg
https://www.kungahuset.se/images/20...eslut_Foto_Sara_Friberg_Kungl.Hovstaterna.jpg

Madeleine at her Instagram:
Earlier today, the court went out with the information that Leonore, Nicolas and Adrienne will no longer belong to The Royal House.⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀
This change has been planned for a long time. Chris and I think it is good that our children now have a greater opportunity to build their own lives in the future as private persons.
https://www.instagram.com/p/B3UV9jGorjx/

Carl Philip and Sofia at their Instagram
Today, the King announced the decision that our children are no longer their Royal Highnesses. We see this as positive as Alexander and Gabriel will have freer choices in life.⠀⠀⠀
They will retain their prince titles and their duchies, Södermanland and Dalarna, which we value and are proud of. Our family has strong connections to both provinces and we maintain our commitment there.⠀⠀⠀
We will continue to focus on issues close to our heart and our commitments. We will also continue to support the King and the Crown Princess - our future head of state - and participate in the activities of the Royal House in the way wished.
https://www.instagram.com/p/B3UVzMJnUTZ/

Video of the press conference, the Marshal of the Realm Fredrik Wersäll starts it at 6.10. After the press conference SVT interviewed Fredrik Wersäll, it starts at 24.57.
Nyheter Direkt - Därför krymper Kungahuset _ SVT Play

Expressen's royal columnist/expert Karin Lennmor was totally surprised about this decision, she didn't see it coming.
Karin Lennmor om kungens besked om barnbarnen_ ”Det var fullständigt oväntat”
Translation

Lennmor writes also that now the demands for the crown princess family are increasing, even for Estelle and Oscar. "Either way, I welcome today's decision. Bravo the king, who now lives up to his motto "For Sweden - With the times", writes Lennmor.
KARIN LENNMOR_ Nu ökar kraven på kronprinsessan Victoria
Translation

Johan T Lindwall, the editor-in-chief of Svensk Damtidning
Johan T Lindwall om titlarna_ _Kungen gör det för Madeleines skull_ _ Svensk Dam
Translation

Efter beslutet! Så blir barnbarnens liv utan kungliga titlar _ Svensk Dam
Translation
 
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With the Press conference over here´s the gist of what was said:
Prince Gabriel, Alexander, Nicolas & Princesses Leonore & Adrienne have ceased to be members of The Royal House of Sweden but remain as members of the Royal Family. Therefore they loose their style of Royal Highnesses but retains their titel of Prince/Princess and their Ducal titles. The title of Prince/Princess are for life only and will not be shared with future spouses or children. They will not be expected to take on public duties. Therefore the strict rule about royals not working for profit will be altered. When questioned about the requirement of them having a Swedish education Fredrik Wersäll said that it would not be enforced as strictly anymore.
All these changes are within the right of The King to change and it will not affect the childrens place in the Line of Succession. That can only by done by changes in the Constitution.
The biggest bombshell to me was that Prince Carl Philip, Princess Sofia and PRince Madeline might see a decrease in their official roles as time goes by. Carl Philip will still stand in as regent if necessary until Princess Estelle reaches her maturity aged 18 and can take over.
 
Well, that’s was a total slim down on the Swedish Royal Family. Something I didn’t see coming.
 
That came out of the blue I thought it might happen after the present King passes away.
 
I always believed this would happen sooner tbh and wonder that it didn't happen before the children were born.

It is sensible. Sweden is small, there is really no reason for such a big Royal household.
 
I can’t say that I’m at all surprised. I’ve always assumed that Carl Philip and Madeleine’s children would live fairly normal lives, with regular families and careers. I’ve always wondered if Leonore was given the HRH/Princess title because she was essentially the spare to the heir at the time of her birth and after the succession issues of the King’s youth, he wanted to ensure that the future of the monarchy was secure.
 
Zaira said:
I always believed this would happen sooner tbh and wonder that it didn't happen before the children were born.

It is sensible. Sweden is small, there is really no reason for such a big Royal household.
Click to expand...
At least with Leonore and to a lesser extent Nicolas it made sense. Estelle was an only child at that point and they were serving as that generation's insurance policy. Personally, I think the place to make this change could have been starting with Alexander, as by that time Oscar had come along to be the spare.

Ideally, this gets codified into a house law like this.
  1. Only children of the monarch or future monarchs get HRHs
  2. Only spouses of HRHs get to share the title (ex: Oscar's future wife is a Princess but Alexander's isn't)
  3. Establish for the future whether children of non-mainline HRHs will get Prince/Princess and duchy. I get doing it for future kids of Carl Philip and Madeleine, for consistency's sake, but Oscar's kids could be a different story
 
Interesting news. And a good change. I honestly think that the minute Oscar was born, was the minute they started working on this, when the direct succession was secured. In republican Sweden, it doesn't do to have too big a royal family.

It is kind of like what was done in Norway with Sverre Magnus. And it is the general trend that we see all over Europe.
 
principessa said:
Just one question: When Sofia will get a third or Madeleine get a forth child, will this children get a dukedom or just be Prince/ss X?
Click to expand...

They certainly would not want a difference between their children. So any future children from Madeleine or sofia would be Prince/ss and Duke/Duchess of X. Without being HRH.
 
To my mind, it is a very straightforward and pragmatic decision made by the King in order to simplify and clarify the situation for the coming decades. I also applaud Princess Madeleine's and Prince Carl Philip's instagram posts made soon after the announcement and in clear support of the decision.
 
It is something we see in all monarchies.

The most extreme in Spain where siblings of the King are already out of the Royal House.

Norway, where the brother of the future Queen is no HRH anymore.

The Netherlands, where only children of the present, the former and the future Sovereign are HRH and have the title of Prince (Princess) and where male-lineage grandchildren of the Sovereign, not in direct line, belong to the hereditary nobility.

Sweden, where only children of the present and the future Sovereign are HRH and where grandchildren of the Sovereign, not in direct line, are Prince (Princess) without HRH, eventually with a Dukedom ad personam.

An interesting question is what will happen with the children of Prince Carl Philip, Sweden's former Crown Prince, the unbroken legitimate male agnatic procreation of the Royal House since the first Bernadotte on the throne of Sweden.

Will Carl Philip's sons, the Dukes of Sodermanland and of Dalarna, have plain Mr and Miss Bernadotte as children despite their direct and unbroken male lineage? With other words: will their children be denied the rights "normal" Swedish aristocracy enjoys, namely continue the title in male lineage?
 
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Duc_et_Pair said:
An interesting question is what will happen with the children of Prince Carl Philip, Sweden's former Crown Prince, the unbroken legitimate male agnatic procreation of the Royal House since the first Bernadotte on the throne of Sweden.

Will Carl Philip's sons, the Dukes of Sodermanland and of Dalarna, have plain Mr and Miss Bernadotte as children?
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According to what's been communicated today, yes.
 
JR76 said:
According to what's been communicated today, yes.
Click to expand...

I hope the Court can find a prudent and more courteous way and treat them alike any children of a Swedish Greve or Friherre or otherwise titled nobleman... It It is would be strange to see a Greve Wachtmeister af Johannishus or a Friherre Silfverskiöld pass their nobility to a new male line generation but not the royal born Carl Philip.
 
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Very confusing.

1. Are the children still Prince/Princess of Sweden or just Prince/Princess ?

2. Will CP’s and Madeleine’s grandchildren be in the line of succession ?

3. Will the requirements for princes and princesses “ of the Royal House” in the Act of Succession still apply to CP’s and Madeleine’s children now they are no longer princes of the Royal House ? I am referring for example to the requirement that they profess the Lutheran faith and get the government’s consent to marry upon petition by the King .
 
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Mbruno said:
Very confusing.

1. Are the children still Prince/Princess of Sweden or just Prince/Princess ?
Click to expand...

According to the updated court website they are not prince/princess of Sweden:
Children - Sveriges Kungahus
Oscar's biography

Princess Christina and husband Tord Magnuson think the king is making a "wise move", they say together:
- It's a pretty natural development. It is a wise move by the king to somehow make the monarch's tasks visible and how he needs help from the family. Then it can't be very many anyway. People must have a future and get their own life. That's good timing.
Tord Magnuson adds:
- We also have our own children who take care of themselves, that is just fine.
Princess Birgitta is also positive about the decision.
- It is important that the entire system is properly regulated, she says and continues:
- People wonder and think so much. It's just as good that it gets in order. It will probably be proper and good anyway, I think.
Madeleine och Carl Philips barn ska inte tillhöra Kungahuset

Harrison_ Kungens beslut är historiskt unikt
Translation
 
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What’s the difference between a Prince of Sweden as apposed to just a ‘Prince’?
 
Royal titles

Presumably they will now be Prince/Princess X Bernadotte.
 
Rudolph said:
What’s the difference between a Prince of Sweden as apposed to just a ‘Prince’?
Click to expand...

They just enjoy the personal title of prince without being a Prince of the Royal House.

The Swedes lack the possibility to use a dynastical, eventually hereditary title like Count of Nassau (Luxembourg), Count of Orange-Nassau (Netherlands), Count de Monpezat, Count of Rosenborg, Count of Federiksborg (Denmark).
 
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